I stopped being an idealistic romantic at eighteen.

…it is not base to expect justice – my code allows for it.

I’ll be offline the rest of the day, but I’d be delighted to continue this discussion later. So please carry on, all.

It is precisely because it is natural, human and instinctive to want vengeance that the state took over responsibility for punishment, regularity, improved detection…the list is endless.

Having given the lawyers their rational day in court the poor old public is having to endure that which a sheltered, extremely wealthy and insulated person does not.

One day the gangs will not rule the streets anymore…but only when the state properly carries out the wishes of the human majority. My head and heart may yearn for Utopia inhabited by the musical poet…but my feet know they stand in hell’s fire.

Now, on deterrence. What are the possible goals of punishment? Deterrence, rehabilitation, and retribution, right? You seem to be arguing that deterrence doesn’t exist, so let’s toss that from the discussion. The recidivism rate is in the mid-70% range last I checked, and it seems from all accounts that prisons, if anything, take so-so criminals, give them better skills and harden them. So there’s no evidence that rehabilitation is a reality, either.

That leaves us with retribution as the only meaningful consideration. If this is true, then it raises a question of fairness and seriously alters the morality landscape you raised earlier. Is life imprisonment really a fair retribution for a cold-blooded multiple rape/murder? Maybe, maybe not.

But at the very least, let’s be very honest with ourselves about the issue. As for the morality issue, I’ve simply never been convinced that you prosper by affording really bad people the benefits of a level of civilization that they’d never afford you. Then again, I’m somewhat of a Machiavellian….

I must admit that it’s difficult for me to see any real justification for capital punishment other than a personalized sense of vengeance, unfit for a society that strives for rationality and justice.

I’ll leave aside the morality argument for the moment – I have a position there, but would rather address the meat of an argument that the anti-death penalty camp erroneously makes pretty consistently: that it’s a proven non-deterrent.

This is a popular article of faith, but it is simply not true. The death penalty as practiced HERE is an ineffective deterrent, to be sure, but that’s because there’s no certainty behind it. If you commit a capital crime, you may or may not be caught. If caught, you may or may not be able to plead out of capital punishment. Even if convicted and sentenced to the death penalty, you’re going to have YEARS of appeals to get out of it, and during that period of time any number of things can save you. On the whole, your chances of actually getting executed are about the same as being struck by lightning as you’re attacked by a shark at the very moment you were dying of natural causes.

Deterrence is a function in large part of certainty. The only way we could make the argument that anti-penalty forces make on that front with any credibility at all would be if we injected a high degree of certainty into the process. If we get to the point where 90% of murderers are executed within a couple years of conviction (streamlined appeals and all that), then and ONLY then could we draw solid conclusions about cap pun’s deterrent effect.

My guess is that it wouldn’t eliminate capital crimes, but that you’d see a significant dip.

I disagree with this.

When I hear about 9 month old babies being raped in South Africa, little boys and girls interfered with to the extent that they never recover their minds or achieve the growth that is their right, then I am aware and know that there is something more heinous than the taking of the physical life. It is why Capital Punishment for Rape of Children still exists in some countries in the far East.

When I consider what type of sacrifices I am prepared to make on behalf of those I love/cherish it is known to me that I can and would die for those I care about. I would sign up for national service (as in Israel), I would donate my kidney (thus leaving me at greater risk, perhaps even leading to my death should luck not be on my side) and there are women everywhere who choose the child’s life they are carrying over their own if diagnosed with cancer by refusing treatment.

If I know I can in effect take my own life through sacrifice…then I lose no sleep over the idea of cheaply, efficiently and cleanly despatching a life that gave no thought to the value of another.

Capital punishment is illogical, because it is intended to demonstrate that the state does not approve of killing. It does so by killing someone. Not exactly teaching by example.

It is unjust, because many innocent people are executed, as we have learned recently from DNA evidence. And poor people are more likely to be executed than rich people, black people more likely than white people. An adversarial legal system rewards those who can afford the best lawyers, and nowhere with more obvious benefit than in a capital case. The millstones of justice do not grind with the same degree of fineness for all citizens.

It is immoral, because there is no more heinous deed than killing another human being, particularly when the killing is not accidental but carefully considered, premeditated. Every religion has a central teaching like the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill. (Most religions also provide exceptions and rationalizations for state killing, but that is a matter of traditional dogma, not morality.) Especially in cold blood.

Capital punishment is also impractical, because the justification that it deters would-be murderers (in the aggregate) is demonstrably false. In the US, more murders occur in states with the death penalty than those without.

The justice system has been tinkered about with so much in England that we have really, really dangerous people roaming freely. Every year we hear about some poor soul losing their life or having terrible actions carried out against them because of the failure of the system to protect the public. This is because they release offenders back onto the streets…

The government here refuses to hold a referendum on the Death Penalty as past polls have indicated it would be a punishment/solution that the majority would probably like to see re-instated.

The barbarity of some of the crimes that are committed means that I have no problem in seeing THAT individual pay for his crimes by being put to death. Nor do I want the burden of the criminal on my tax bill.

I’d rather feed, educate, nurture someone more deserving.