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	<title>Comments on: Investing for Life: If you believe Oxfam it means making slaves of the best amongst us</title>
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	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/</link>
	<description>Think.  It ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: FFS</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-29314</link>
		<dc:creator>FFS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes those I-Pod related deaths in rural Rwanda sure are soaring aren&#039;t they..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes those I-Pod related deaths in rural Rwanda sure are soaring aren&#8217;t they..</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9483</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Myth 1: Pharmaceutical industry invest profit into R&amp; D

Several studies have shown that this is not the case. On the contrary, investment in R&amp;D has never been so low, whilst billions are invested in marketing. Pharma live on evergreening and repackaging.

Myth 2: Middle income country like Thailand and Brazil can afford to pay for life-saving medicine

So why is the US the first country in the world when it comes to the number of compulsory license issued ranging from auto and aircraft par to the Blackberry which are far from being life saving?

Myth 3: The public and tax-payer benefit from the profit made by the Pharma

Most Pharma escape high level taxation they should be submitted to by registering office offshore.

Truth number one: Pharma are no the slave of politician.

True. Politicians are on the payroll of Pharma!

For a different point of view on this subject read:

Wealth versus health - the Thai frontier
http://tinyurl.com/2z2sjg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myth 1: Pharmaceutical industry invest profit into R&amp; D</p>
<p>Several studies have shown that this is not the case. On the contrary, investment in R&amp;D has never been so low, whilst billions are invested in marketing. Pharma live on evergreening and repackaging.</p>
<p>Myth 2: Middle income country like Thailand and Brazil can afford to pay for life-saving medicine</p>
<p>So why is the US the first country in the world when it comes to the number of compulsory license issued ranging from auto and aircraft par to the Blackberry which are far from being life saving?</p>
<p>Myth 3: The public and tax-payer benefit from the profit made by the Pharma</p>
<p>Most Pharma escape high level taxation they should be submitted to by registering office offshore.</p>
<p>Truth number one: Pharma are no the slave of politician.</p>
<p>True. Politicians are on the payroll of Pharma!</p>
<p>For a different point of view on this subject read:</p>
<p>Wealth versus health &#8211; the Thai frontier<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2z2sjg" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2z2sjg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Whythawk</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9482</link>
		<dc:creator>Whythawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9482</guid>
		<description>And I want to respond to that &quot;sitting  on&quot; jab about medication supposedly on the shelf and not being used.  All that happens is that, prior to phase 2 trials, companies evaluate the cost and benefit and don&#039;t proceed.

The cost of going through phase 2, then to human trials, FDA approval, etc. is extremely expensive and extremely technical.  They could &quot;give&quot; this IP away, but generics firms don&#039;t have the technical capacity or financial ability to cover the costs.  You&#039;d still be left with high costs.

In addition, who gets held responsible if things go wrong?

There was a suggestion a few years back of creating a UN fund that would guarantee a fixed price for the treatments to specialised illnesses (to some extent what the Gate Foundation is up to).  It doesn&#039;t seem to have amounted to much, but it is a damn site better idea that &quot;forcing&quot; pharmaceuticals firms to work for free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I want to respond to that &#8220;sitting  on&#8221; jab about medication supposedly on the shelf and not being used.  All that happens is that, prior to phase 2 trials, companies evaluate the cost and benefit and don&#8217;t proceed.</p>
<p>The cost of going through phase 2, then to human trials, FDA approval, etc. is extremely expensive and extremely technical.  They could &#8220;give&#8221; this IP away, but generics firms don&#8217;t have the technical capacity or financial ability to cover the costs.  You&#8217;d still be left with high costs.</p>
<p>In addition, who gets held responsible if things go wrong?</p>
<p>There was a suggestion a few years back of creating a UN fund that would guarantee a fixed price for the treatments to specialised illnesses (to some extent what the Gate Foundation is up to).  It doesn&#8217;t seem to have amounted to much, but it is a damn site better idea that &#8220;forcing&#8221; pharmaceuticals firms to work for free.</p>
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		<title>By: The health knowledgebase &#187; Investing for Life: If you believe Oxfam it means making slaves of &#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9461</link>
		<dc:creator>The health knowledgebase &#187; Investing for Life: If you believe Oxfam it means making slaves of &#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9461</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the full post at Scholars and Rogues [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the full post at Scholars and Rogues [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rho</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9424</link>
		<dc:creator>Rho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9424</guid>
		<description>Brian,
In this case I have to side with Whythawk, at least primarily. The pharmaceutical companies don&#039;t produce drugs that they can&#039;t make profitable, nor should they be forced to. This means that drug research is going to primarily be focused on finding &quot;cures&quot; for &quot;illnesses&quot; most commonly afflicting those who can afford to pay for them. This then gives us stuff like &quot;cures&quot; for E.D. Now saying that not all Pharm companies are the devil driven solely by profit. Take Amgen for example. They make a drug to help offset the detrimental effects of Chemo-Therapy. This is a very expensive drug that they spent years and millions of dollars developing. They charge people with health insurance full price because the insurance pays the vast majority of the costs. Then they turn around and donate a portion to hospitals and clinics that treat the less advantaged and to hospitals in third world companies. The last year I worked there they donated over $120 million dollars in medications this way. Ya they took the tax break for it but why shouldn&#039;t they. They were still giving somewhere between 5 and 8 percent of their yearly profit. Can you say that about many companies from other industries such as maybe GM from the automobile industry or Phillip/Morris from the Tabacco industry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,<br />
In this case I have to side with Whythawk, at least primarily. The pharmaceutical companies don&#8217;t produce drugs that they can&#8217;t make profitable, nor should they be forced to. This means that drug research is going to primarily be focused on finding &#8220;cures&#8221; for &#8220;illnesses&#8221; most commonly afflicting those who can afford to pay for them. This then gives us stuff like &#8220;cures&#8221; for E.D. Now saying that not all Pharm companies are the devil driven solely by profit. Take Amgen for example. They make a drug to help offset the detrimental effects of Chemo-Therapy. This is a very expensive drug that they spent years and millions of dollars developing. They charge people with health insurance full price because the insurance pays the vast majority of the costs. Then they turn around and donate a portion to hospitals and clinics that treat the less advantaged and to hospitals in third world companies. The last year I worked there they donated over $120 million dollars in medications this way. Ya they took the tax break for it but why shouldn&#8217;t they. They were still giving somewhere between 5 and 8 percent of their yearly profit. Can you say that about many companies from other industries such as maybe GM from the automobile industry or Phillip/Morris from the Tabacco industry?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Denny</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9410</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Denny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9410</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the post and comments. This isn&#039;t my area, so I&#039;m learning quite a bit here. I appreciate that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post and comments. This isn&#8217;t my area, so I&#8217;m learning quite a bit here. I appreciate that.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Angliss</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9407</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Angliss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9407</guid>
		<description>Side effects often don&#039;t manifest in the original research because of insufficient breadth of exposure, or long-term effects that aren&#039;t tracked before approval.  Yes, they&#039;re R&amp;D in some sense, but it&#039;s usually not the pharmaceutical companies that are doing the long-term effects studies, it&#039;s doctors at hospitals and universities who are concerned about side effects.  Sometimes the companies pay for the studies, sometimes they don&#039;t.

I&#039;m actually not suggesting that all the big pharmaceutical companies should be forced to give away their IP - I consider that an illegal &quot;taking&quot; of property by the government, something that&#039;s unconstitutional here in the US.  But I am suggesting that drug companies should be forced to make available, at nominal prices, drugs that they&#039;re keeping off the market because the drug&#039;s not a Viagra(TM) or a Lipitor(TM).  Drugs for diseases that primarily affect the poor aren&#039;t marketed or developed because the profit margin isn&#039;t big enough.

Letting millions of people die from malaria when there&#039;s a cheap but not-profitable drug sitting on the shelf is immoral.  If someone else can manufacture the drug cheaper than the drug&#039;s developer can, then that someone else should have the opportunity to do so, and before the 20 year patent expiration.

I&#039;m not saying that the discoverer of the drug should &lt;em&gt;give&lt;/em&gt; that drug away, but they shouldn&#039;t sit on it either.  There has to be a way to license that drug from it&#039;s developer in a way that enables them to meet their development costs (or at least defray them) and still saves lives before the patent runs out.  A lot of what&#039;s going on with the Gates Foundation is exactly this model, and it seems to be working reasonably well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Side effects often don&#8217;t manifest in the original research because of insufficient breadth of exposure, or long-term effects that aren&#8217;t tracked before approval.  Yes, they&#8217;re R&#038;D in some sense, but it&#8217;s usually not the pharmaceutical companies that are doing the long-term effects studies, it&#8217;s doctors at hospitals and universities who are concerned about side effects.  Sometimes the companies pay for the studies, sometimes they don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m actually not suggesting that all the big pharmaceutical companies should be forced to give away their IP &#8211; I consider that an illegal &#8220;taking&#8221; of property by the government, something that&#8217;s unconstitutional here in the US.  But I am suggesting that drug companies should be forced to make available, at nominal prices, drugs that they&#8217;re keeping off the market because the drug&#8217;s not a Viagra(TM) or a Lipitor(TM).  Drugs for diseases that primarily affect the poor aren&#8217;t marketed or developed because the profit margin isn&#8217;t big enough.</p>
<p>Letting millions of people die from malaria when there&#8217;s a cheap but not-profitable drug sitting on the shelf is immoral.  If someone else can manufacture the drug cheaper than the drug&#8217;s developer can, then that someone else should have the opportunity to do so, and before the 20 year patent expiration.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the discoverer of the drug should <em>give</em> that drug away, but they shouldn&#8217;t sit on it either.  There has to be a way to license that drug from it&#8217;s developer in a way that enables them to meet their development costs (or at least defray them) and still saves lives before the patent runs out.  A lot of what&#8217;s going on with the Gates Foundation is exactly this model, and it seems to be working reasonably well.</p>
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		<title>By: elaine</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9390</link>
		<dc:creator>elaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9390</guid>
		<description>Meanwhile...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6927814.stm

Finally!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6927814.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6927814.stm</a></p>
<p>Finally!</p>
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		<title>By: whythawk</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9380</link>
		<dc:creator>whythawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9380</guid>
		<description>Brian, my central premise isn&#039;t changed because some drugs companies have products that have dreadful side-effects.  If anything, it is strengthened.

As I said: &quot;It is fair comment to demand that those who are responsible for causing an illness take responsibility for fixing the ill they cause.&quot; At least you can sue a company that profits from a product that causes harm.

The &quot;harm&quot; by the by, is caused by some very unusual properties of chemicals.  Partly it is the result of chirality (the &quot;handedness&quot; or twist of a chemical where a subtle difference, not in it&#039;s chemical makeup but in its twist can produce terrible effects - thalidamide is a good example of this).  The other is now being realised as the genetic makeup of the person receiving the drug.  Quite a few of the recent drugs that have been recalled have had this problem.  The drugs work perfectly, but only on a specific genetic family.

With all this try and imagine what happens when you &quot;give&quot; the IP to some generics manufacturer?

A new contradiction gets introduced.  You don&#039;t trust the drug majors, but you do trust the generics manufacturers?  At least the person who introduces and patents a drug has to go through the FDA for approval.

Generics manufacturers don&#039;t have to as long as they can prove that their compound is chemically similar to the original.  But - as I point out above - chemically similar doesn&#039;t mean identical, and doesn&#039;t even mean the same action in all cases.

Picking up on the side-effects is as much an R&amp;D function as the original research.  Who is going to do it if the drug majors can&#039;t afford to after having been forced to give their original IP away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, my central premise isn&#8217;t changed because some drugs companies have products that have dreadful side-effects.  If anything, it is strengthened.</p>
<p>As I said: &#8220;It is fair comment to demand that those who are responsible for causing an illness take responsibility for fixing the ill they cause.&#8221; At least you can sue a company that profits from a product that causes harm.</p>
<p>The &#8220;harm&#8221; by the by, is caused by some very unusual properties of chemicals.  Partly it is the result of chirality (the &#8220;handedness&#8221; or twist of a chemical where a subtle difference, not in it&#8217;s chemical makeup but in its twist can produce terrible effects &#8211; thalidamide is a good example of this).  The other is now being realised as the genetic makeup of the person receiving the drug.  Quite a few of the recent drugs that have been recalled have had this problem.  The drugs work perfectly, but only on a specific genetic family.</p>
<p>With all this try and imagine what happens when you &#8220;give&#8221; the IP to some generics manufacturer?</p>
<p>A new contradiction gets introduced.  You don&#8217;t trust the drug majors, but you do trust the generics manufacturers?  At least the person who introduces and patents a drug has to go through the FDA for approval.</p>
<p>Generics manufacturers don&#8217;t have to as long as they can prove that their compound is chemically similar to the original.  But &#8211; as I point out above &#8211; chemically similar doesn&#8217;t mean identical, and doesn&#8217;t even mean the same action in all cases.</p>
<p>Picking up on the side-effects is as much an R&#038;D function as the original research.  Who is going to do it if the drug majors can&#8217;t afford to after having been forced to give their original IP away?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Angliss</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9323</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Angliss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9323</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d have more sympathy for the pharmaceutical companies if they didn&#039;t have a history of sitting on effective drugs for things like malaria because they couldn&#039;t make any money off the drugs, of they were still legally prevented from marketing their drugs to the public directly via media outlets.

Be careful, though - some of your points are wrong.  There have recently been a number of examples where drug companies&#039; products have made people sick, so your blanket &quot;Pharmaceuticals companies do not cause people to get sick.&quot; is patently inaccurate.

I can&#039;t fault your conclusion that Oxfam could probably do a lot more good buying and distributing medicines directly than bitching about pharmaceutical companies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have more sympathy for the pharmaceutical companies if they didn&#8217;t have a history of sitting on effective drugs for things like malaria because they couldn&#8217;t make any money off the drugs, of they were still legally prevented from marketing their drugs to the public directly via media outlets.</p>
<p>Be careful, though &#8211; some of your points are wrong.  There have recently been a number of examples where drug companies&#8217; products have made people sick, so your blanket &#8220;Pharmaceuticals companies do not cause people to get sick.&#8221; is patently inaccurate.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t fault your conclusion that Oxfam could probably do a lot more good buying and distributing medicines directly than bitching about pharmaceutical companies.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/comment-page-1/#comment-9320</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2007/12/04/investing-for-life-if-you-believe-oxfam-it-means-making-slaves-of-the-best-amongst-us/#comment-9320</guid>
		<description>Good post

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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