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	<title>Comments on: How US News is hurting our high school students</title>
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	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/</link>
	<description>Think - it ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26955</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26955</guid>
		<description>JS

My high school published stats in the 70&#039;s, and soon dropped the publication because their stats were going downhill.  Hell, they let me graduate....

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JS</p>
<p>My high school published stats in the 70&#8217;s, and soon dropped the publication because their stats were going downhill.  Hell, they let me graduate&#8230;.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: JS O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26789</link>
		<dc:creator>JS O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 03:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26789</guid>
		<description>Jeff:

Philips Exeter doesn&#039;t publish stats, therefore, it doesn&#039;t get into rankings.  Actually, I&#039;m not sure any private schools do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff:</p>
<p>Philips Exeter doesn&#8217;t publish stats, therefore, it doesn&#8217;t get into rankings.  Actually, I&#8217;m not sure any private schools do.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26786</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 03:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26786</guid>
		<description>My son ended up at Pineview School for the gifted in Florida (#6 I think) from second grade through eighth.  He liked it there and we were happy with the faculty.  However, my son wanted to go to four years of Phillips Exeter, which isn&#039;t found in most conventional rankings.  Although pricey, Exeter was the best investment I ever made in my son.  After Exeter, he ended up at Yale College, which is another good investment.  Although those schools have turned him into an unabashed liberal, they did teach him how to think, and I&#039;m good with that.

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son ended up at Pineview School for the gifted in Florida (#6 I think) from second grade through eighth.  He liked it there and we were happy with the faculty.  However, my son wanted to go to four years of Phillips Exeter, which isn&#8217;t found in most conventional rankings.  Although pricey, Exeter was the best investment I ever made in my son.  After Exeter, he ended up at Yale College, which is another good investment.  Although those schools have turned him into an unabashed liberal, they did teach him how to think, and I&#8217;m good with that.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: JS O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26751</link>
		<dc:creator>JS O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26751</guid>
		<description>Doc Slammy,

Well, if you think of &quot;marketing game&quot; as including one of the four Ps, &quot;product,&quot; then I would make the argument that all US News has done with its college issue is to find a crying need for information and then fill that need with the best product (rankings) currently available.  But marketing also includes brand leveraging (as you know better than I), and one good product can be used as credibility to sell a number of bad products.

And I think this is what&#039;s going on with the high school ranking issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doc Slammy,</p>
<p>Well, if you think of &#8220;marketing game&#8221; as including one of the four Ps, &#8220;product,&#8221; then I would make the argument that all US News has done with its college issue is to find a crying need for information and then fill that need with the best product (rankings) currently available.  But marketing also includes brand leveraging (as you know better than I), and one good product can be used as credibility to sell a number of bad products.</p>
<p>And I think this is what&#8217;s going on with the high school ranking issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Slammy</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26710</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Slammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26710</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a marketing game, isn&#039;t it - for both USN and the schools that do well in its rankings (at the college level - I don&#039;t think it&#039;s doing the marketing dept at Rural HS any good).

Honestly, I&#039;m pretty sure that if I had the time and inclination I could pull together a rip-roaring indictment of its college rankings, too, but the HS methodology is simply horrific.

But what does its marketing group care, really?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a marketing game, isn&#8217;t it &#8211; for both USN and the schools that do well in its rankings (at the college level &#8211; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s doing the marketing dept at Rural HS any good).</p>
<p>Honestly, I&#8217;m pretty sure that if I had the time and inclination I could pull together a rip-roaring indictment of its college rankings, too, but the HS methodology is simply horrific.</p>
<p>But what does its marketing group care, really?</p>
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		<title>By: JS O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26703</link>
		<dc:creator>JS O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26703</guid>
		<description>Jim:

Yes, we&#039;ll have to disagree.  I plan to publish a defense of US News&#039; undergrad rankings when they next come out (next April, I believe, but I could be off a few months).  But, just as an appetizer, let me put forth one factor the publication uses in its undergrad rankings:  quality of undergraduate class as measured by standardized test scores and rank in class.  

Now, I&#039;ve had many, many conversations with your colleagues who have actually taught at schools where the entering class was no better than average on those two measures.  They tell me that they had to dumb down the curriculum to match the students&#039; abilities, and that As are given out on an implied curve (that is, the best of an average bunch gets an A regardless of the level of perfection of the wor).  I have also had conversations with faculty at elite schools who tell me that no dumbing down is necessary in their classes.

So, wouldn&#039;t the quality of the student body be a reasonable proxy datum for at least one dimension of quality of education?  I mean, all other things being equal, wouldn&#039;t it follow that faculty at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton can present material at a level that faculty at, say, North Southwestern Clayton County State College can&#039;t?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim:</p>
<p>Yes, we&#8217;ll have to disagree.  I plan to publish a defense of US News&#8217; undergrad rankings when they next come out (next April, I believe, but I could be off a few months).  But, just as an appetizer, let me put forth one factor the publication uses in its undergrad rankings:  quality of undergraduate class as measured by standardized test scores and rank in class.  </p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;ve had many, many conversations with your colleagues who have actually taught at schools where the entering class was no better than average on those two measures.  They tell me that they had to dumb down the curriculum to match the students&#8217; abilities, and that As are given out on an implied curve (that is, the best of an average bunch gets an A regardless of the level of perfection of the wor).  I have also had conversations with faculty at elite schools who tell me that no dumbing down is necessary in their classes.</p>
<p>So, wouldn&#8217;t the quality of the student body be a reasonable proxy datum for at least one dimension of quality of education?  I mean, all other things being equal, wouldn&#8217;t it follow that faculty at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton can present material at a level that faculty at, say, North Southwestern Clayton County State College can&#8217;t?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Booth</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26702</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Booth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26702</guid>
		<description>We disagree on that point, JS - I don&#039;t think any of these rankings are defensible in any way. 

After all, the schools recognized as great are the usual suspects - Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, et. al. - and everyone else is just looking to get into a category where their marketing depts. (which exist by siphoning off funds from actual educational pursuits) can use the info to &quot;sell&quot; education like it was freakin&#039; fast food. I&#039;m reminded of my late brother-in-law who was always getting me to play in golf tournaments. I was a 6 handicapper; he was a 26. Yet the way &quot;flights&quot; (i.e., categories of golfers) were put together for competitive purposes, he invariably won trophies and I was an also ran competing against scratch golfers.

What this will do is take that model - which now dominates college education - and apply it at the high school level - and so kids at &quot;Rural High&quot; will get cheated even more than they&#039;re being cheated now so that the district superintendent&#039;s office can hire marketers to &quot;sell&quot; high schools the same way colleges get sold. And we move another step closer to privatizing education instead of making the civic commitment to creating a well educated citizenry.

You know, as I think about that, that notion of civic commitment to an educated citizenry sounds like it ought to be part of the Bill of Rights. The new 10A Amendment, as it were....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We disagree on that point, JS &#8211; I don&#8217;t think any of these rankings are defensible in any way. </p>
<p>After all, the schools recognized as great are the usual suspects &#8211; Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, et. al. &#8211; and everyone else is just looking to get into a category where their marketing depts. (which exist by siphoning off funds from actual educational pursuits) can use the info to &#8220;sell&#8221; education like it was freakin&#8217; fast food. I&#8217;m reminded of my late brother-in-law who was always getting me to play in golf tournaments. I was a 6 handicapper; he was a 26. Yet the way &#8220;flights&#8221; (i.e., categories of golfers) were put together for competitive purposes, he invariably won trophies and I was an also ran competing against scratch golfers.</p>
<p>What this will do is take that model &#8211; which now dominates college education &#8211; and apply it at the high school level &#8211; and so kids at &#8220;Rural High&#8221; will get cheated even more than they&#8217;re being cheated now so that the district superintendent&#8217;s office can hire marketers to &#8220;sell&#8221; high schools the same way colleges get sold. And we move another step closer to privatizing education instead of making the civic commitment to creating a well educated citizenry.</p>
<p>You know, as I think about that, that notion of civic commitment to an educated citizenry sounds like it ought to be part of the Bill of Rights. The new 10A Amendment, as it were&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: JS O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26698</link>
		<dc:creator>JS O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26698</guid>
		<description>Mmm.  But you&#039;ve missed a very important difference.  US News&#039; medical school rankings are defensible based on the criteria they use.  The high school rankings are indefensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm.  But you&#8217;ve missed a very important difference.  US News&#8217; medical school rankings are defensible based on the criteria they use.  The high school rankings are indefensible.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/comment-page-1/#comment-26695</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/03/20/how-us-news-is-hurting-our-high-school-students/#comment-26695</guid>
		<description>From the Dean of the School of Medicine where I work:

&quot;No one likes a popularity contest, but everyone likes encouragement. No one believes that the US News and other polls are scientific or reliable, unless they have us in the top ten.&quot;

i.e., we hate it, but we have to play along or we look bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Dean of the School of Medicine where I work:</p>
<p>&#8220;No one likes a popularity contest, but everyone likes encouragement. No one believes that the US News and other polls are scientific or reliable, unless they have us in the top ten.&#8221;</p>
<p>i.e., we hate it, but we have to play along or we look bad.</p>
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