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	<title>Comments on: TunesDay: NIN, Lefsetz and the realities of Net success</title>
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	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/</link>
	<description>Think.  It ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: What is, what was and what almost was: an interview with Don Dixon &#171; Pop Underground</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-45395</link>
		<dc:creator>What is, what was and what almost was: an interview with Don Dixon &#171; Pop Underground</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-45395</guid>
		<description>[...] Radiohead, Big Head Todd and Nine Inch Nails have all recently released new CDs free on their Web sites, and everywhere we turn we see artists [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Radiohead, Big Head Todd and Nine Inch Nails have all recently released new CDs free on their Web sites, and everywhere we turn we see artists [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scholars and Rogues &#187; TunesDay: what is, what was and what almost was - the S&#38;R interview with Don Dixon</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-40735</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholars and Rogues &#187; TunesDay: what is, what was and what almost was - the S&#38;R interview with Don Dixon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 14:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-40735</guid>
		<description>[...] Radiohead, Big Head Todd and Nine Inch Nails have all recently released new CDs free on their Web sites, and everywhere we turn we see artists [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Radiohead, Big Head Todd and Nine Inch Nails have all recently released new CDs free on their Web sites, and everywhere we turn we see artists [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38234</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 22:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38234</guid>
		<description>Russ, I loved PHM and wish he&#039;d have done a bit more of that before heading where he is now.  Year Zero and The Slip seem to be moving toward minimalist ambient.  Less overtly angry and destructive, too.  But yeah, his sound hasn&#039;t changed a whole lot and it&#039;s very distinct.  I still think it&#039;s interesting.  At least he hasn&#039;t reached the stage of Steve Roach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ, I loved PHM and wish he&#8217;d have done a bit more of that before heading where he is now.  Year Zero and The Slip seem to be moving toward minimalist ambient.  Less overtly angry and destructive, too.  But yeah, his sound hasn&#8217;t changed a whole lot and it&#8217;s very distinct.  I still think it&#8217;s interesting.  At least he hasn&#8217;t reached the stage of Steve Roach.</p>
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		<title>By: fikshun</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38233</link>
		<dc:creator>fikshun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 22:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38233</guid>
		<description>Dr Slammy,

I agree with you 100%.  I&#039;m not arguing that established artists who already have name recognition and legions of fans can&#039;t ditch labels and handle things themselves (though it should be noted that when Trent released his previous album, Ghosts, by himself, he hadn&#039;t anticipated the response and his servers ate a gun for a day or so).  Obviously, they have fans who check websites daily and pass things along by word of mouth.  Obviously, news of their free releases will generate legitimate free press that will do the marketing for them.  

I&#039;m just saying that we&#039;re in a gasp moment where everyone is still feeling out exactly what is possible.  We just haven&#039;t seen the band yet that can put it all together, but I think it&#039;s coming.

To Russ:
Artists sit at home and create.  If you&#039;ve heard of them or own their CDs, I would put them in another category called entertainers.  Entertainers are either more business savvy or have a manager to handle that.  While their images may be crafted to make them look like tortured, naive artists, most are just good business people who can play an instrument.  They&#039;re not in the positions they&#039;re in by accident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Slammy,</p>
<p>I agree with you 100%.  I&#8217;m not arguing that established artists who already have name recognition and legions of fans can&#8217;t ditch labels and handle things themselves (though it should be noted that when Trent released his previous album, Ghosts, by himself, he hadn&#8217;t anticipated the response and his servers ate a gun for a day or so).  Obviously, they have fans who check websites daily and pass things along by word of mouth.  Obviously, news of their free releases will generate legitimate free press that will do the marketing for them.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying that we&#8217;re in a gasp moment where everyone is still feeling out exactly what is possible.  We just haven&#8217;t seen the band yet that can put it all together, but I think it&#8217;s coming.</p>
<p>To Russ:<br />
Artists sit at home and create.  If you&#8217;ve heard of them or own their CDs, I would put them in another category called entertainers.  Entertainers are either more business savvy or have a manager to handle that.  While their images may be crafted to make them look like tortured, naive artists, most are just good business people who can play an instrument.  They&#8217;re not in the positions they&#8217;re in by accident.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ Wellen</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38198</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ Wellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38198</guid>
		<description>Ultimately, we&#039;re talking about the definition of an artist. As Fikshun says, &quot;if your band members are willing to put in the legwork and you have someone in the band who can handle the publicity, there really is no reason why you couldn&#039;t go all the way on your own.&quot;

But who made this new rule that musicians -- as well as artists and novelists -- have to be PR and marketing people too? For God&#039;s sake, that&#039;s one reason they&#039;re artists -- cause theyre not cut out for those under-assistant, West Coast promotion roles.

As it stands now, the most successful artists are the best businesspersons. What about other artists as good or better? It&#039;s gotten more Darwinian than ever.


(Incidentally, no offense NIN fans. But after the brilliant &quot;Pretty Hate Machine,&quot; NIN became pretty monotonous.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultimately, we&#8217;re talking about the definition of an artist. As Fikshun says, &#8220;if your band members are willing to put in the legwork and you have someone in the band who can handle the publicity, there really is no reason why you couldn&#8217;t go all the way on your own.&#8221;</p>
<p>But who made this new rule that musicians &#8212; as well as artists and novelists &#8212; have to be PR and marketing people too? For God&#8217;s sake, that&#8217;s one reason they&#8217;re artists &#8212; cause theyre not cut out for those under-assistant, West Coast promotion roles.</p>
<p>As it stands now, the most successful artists are the best businesspersons. What about other artists as good or better? It&#8217;s gotten more Darwinian than ever.</p>
<p>(Incidentally, no offense NIN fans. But after the brilliant &#8220;Pretty Hate Machine,&#8221; NIN became pretty monotonous.)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38195</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38195</guid>
		<description>Or maybe base it off Allmusic.com categories?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or maybe base it off Allmusic.com categories?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38193</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael "Ubertramp" Pecaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38193</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t Last.fm kind of a google type music stream? Basically, users track the music they listen to and the site gives suggestions for stuff that sounds similar or in the same genre or whatever.  Seems net marketing would involve making sure your band is part of that &quot;suggestion&quot; list of songs somehow.  I&#039;m not sure if you&#039;d need a big PR company for that or not.  

Maybe someone should develop a google type search engine that crawls the net looking for band websites and MP3 files, streaming it all together like Last.fm or DI.fm based on user preferences?  Each band would register their website with category Tags?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t Last.fm kind of a google type music stream? Basically, users track the music they listen to and the site gives suggestions for stuff that sounds similar or in the same genre or whatever.  Seems net marketing would involve making sure your band is part of that &#8220;suggestion&#8221; list of songs somehow.  I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;d need a big PR company for that or not.  </p>
<p>Maybe someone should develop a google type search engine that crawls the net looking for band websites and MP3 files, streaming it all together like Last.fm or DI.fm based on user preferences?  Each band would register their website with category Tags?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Slammy</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38184</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Slammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38184</guid>
		<description>No disrespect intended, but let me inject a bit of a reality check here. I&#039;m talking about bands in the NIN/Radiohead stratosphere and the best you got is ... OK Go? Seriously? 

Let me note that you have one success story, and best I can tell they only have one gold record (if I missed one let me know).

Further, let&#039;s dispel the notion that they&#039;re an Internet ground-up operation. No arguing what the vids did for their career, of course, but to suggest that nobody had heard of them before they discovered the Internets is bad revisionism. As with other bands we&#039;re talking about, they had a base from which to launch their viral. Check the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_Go&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;timeline&lt;/a&gt; for details.

To be clear, I&#039;m not dogging what the Internet can do. But let&#039;s not get silly and start pretending that it&#039;s doing things that it has NEVER DONE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No disrespect intended, but let me inject a bit of a reality check here. I&#8217;m talking about bands in the NIN/Radiohead stratosphere and the best you got is &#8230; OK Go? Seriously? </p>
<p>Let me note that you have one success story, and best I can tell they only have one gold record (if I missed one let me know).</p>
<p>Further, let&#8217;s dispel the notion that they&#8217;re an Internet ground-up operation. No arguing what the vids did for their career, of course, but to suggest that nobody had heard of them before they discovered the Internets is bad revisionism. As with other bands we&#8217;re talking about, they had a base from which to launch their viral. Check the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_Go" rel="nofollow">timeline</a> for details.</p>
<p>To be clear, I&#8217;m not dogging what the Internet can do. But let&#8217;s not get silly and start pretending that it&#8217;s doing things that it has NEVER DONE.</p>
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		<title>By: fikshun</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38183</link>
		<dc:creator>fikshun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38183</guid>
		<description>Nice article, and nice response, Martin.  I was also going to mention OK GO as an internet success story.  That video broke on youtube before it did any business on MTV.  

I think we&#039;re still in a gasp moment.  Neither the industry or bands seem to fully grasp the impact of the current landscape.  Ten years ago, it was an advantage if your drummer was also a good graphic artist.  Now we may be at the stage where having a singer who is also a marketing grad may be the biggest advantage.

Bands have it better now than they ever have.  High quality recordings can be made very cheaply using a computer.  High quality videos can also be made using the same computer.  And thankfully, the MTV age appears to be over -- ugly rock stars may once again apply.  You only need a little computer skill to be your own digital distributor.  You can target your market very precisely, and for free, by collecting email addresses.  You can book tours via email addresses, too.  

In other words, if your band members are willing to put in the legwork and you have someone in the band who can handle the publicity, there really is no reason why you couldn&#039;t go all the way on your own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article, and nice response, Martin.  I was also going to mention OK GO as an internet success story.  That video broke on youtube before it did any business on MTV.  </p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re still in a gasp moment.  Neither the industry or bands seem to fully grasp the impact of the current landscape.  Ten years ago, it was an advantage if your drummer was also a good graphic artist.  Now we may be at the stage where having a singer who is also a marketing grad may be the biggest advantage.</p>
<p>Bands have it better now than they ever have.  High quality recordings can be made very cheaply using a computer.  High quality videos can also be made using the same computer.  And thankfully, the MTV age appears to be over &#8212; ugly rock stars may once again apply.  You only need a little computer skill to be your own digital distributor.  You can target your market very precisely, and for free, by collecting email addresses.  You can book tours via email addresses, too.  </p>
<p>In other words, if your band members are willing to put in the legwork and you have someone in the band who can handle the publicity, there really is no reason why you couldn&#8217;t go all the way on your own.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38181</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 17:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38181</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re absolutely right that artists at NIN&#039;s level can afford to use Web-only channels to sell and market their work, since they already have a huge fanbase that spreads the word independently--I, for instance, heard about the release of &quot;Slip&quot; both on Techdirt and my friends&#039; Livejournals. (How&#039;s that for a mashup?) 

But look at all the bands using YouTube videos to vault themselves into the public sphere, like OK GO and the hilarious treadmill stuff. There&#039;s no sure way to success in the Net-only sphere, any more than there is in the old-school way of getting a record label behind you, but sometimes people strike gold. Other times they strike out.

In Trent&#039;s case, even before the &quot;machine&quot; pushed him to success, &quot;Pretty Hate Machine&quot; was getting constant play on the alternative radio stations, in the goth clubs, and so on. It wasn&#039;t until &quot;Broken&quot; that MTV really latched on to him, but the underground knew what was up. 

I think Lefsetz is being overly triumphalist, and you&#039;re being excessively pessimistic. The era of record label hegemony isn&#039;t quite over yet, but the need for them to adapt to the new realities of digital marketing has never been stronger. The smart ones will do for their artists what Trent has done for himself, and the stupid ones will die off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re absolutely right that artists at NIN&#8217;s level can afford to use Web-only channels to sell and market their work, since they already have a huge fanbase that spreads the word independently&#8211;I, for instance, heard about the release of &#8220;Slip&#8221; both on Techdirt and my friends&#8217; Livejournals. (How&#8217;s that for a mashup?) </p>
<p>But look at all the bands using YouTube videos to vault themselves into the public sphere, like OK GO and the hilarious treadmill stuff. There&#8217;s no sure way to success in the Net-only sphere, any more than there is in the old-school way of getting a record label behind you, but sometimes people strike gold. Other times they strike out.</p>
<p>In Trent&#8217;s case, even before the &#8220;machine&#8221; pushed him to success, &#8220;Pretty Hate Machine&#8221; was getting constant play on the alternative radio stations, in the goth clubs, and so on. It wasn&#8217;t until &#8220;Broken&#8221; that MTV really latched on to him, but the underground knew what was up. </p>
<p>I think Lefsetz is being overly triumphalist, and you&#8217;re being excessively pessimistic. The era of record label hegemony isn&#8217;t quite over yet, but the need for them to adapt to the new realities of digital marketing has never been stronger. The smart ones will do for their artists what Trent has done for himself, and the stupid ones will die off.</p>
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		<title>By: www.buzzflash.net</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38174</link>
		<dc:creator>www.buzzflash.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 17:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38174</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Nine Inch Nails, Bob Lefsetz and the realities of Net success...&lt;/strong&gt;

Yes, the Net is a great tool. And some day, perhaps, weâ€™ll see an industry-redefining breakthrough, where a band reaches Radiohead/NIN multi-platinum status using only the Web and social media. But until then we have to stop kidding ourselves that th...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Nine Inch Nails, Bob Lefsetz and the realities of Net success&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Yes, the Net is a great tool. And some day, perhaps, weâ€™ll see an industry-redefining breakthrough, where a band reaches Radiohead/NIN multi-platinum status using only the Web and social media. But until then we have to stop kidding ourselves that th&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Euphrosyne</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/05/07/tunesday-nin-lefsetz-and-the-realities-of-net-success/comment-page-1/#comment-38173</link>
		<dc:creator>Euphrosyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=2059#comment-38173</guid>
		<description>Every day should be Trent Reznor day, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every day should be Trent Reznor day, anyway.</p>
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