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	<title>Comments on: New EDF poll statistically invalid due to biased questions</title>
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	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/14/new-edf-poll/</link>
	<description>Think - it ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: Freedem</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/14/new-edf-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-59086</link>
		<dc:creator>Freedem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=5449#comment-59086</guid>
		<description>Framing is far more than bias. It places the context as it needs to be understood. It can (and often is) used disingenuously. And it can call up personal biases that are not good and bring them to the front. The Movie &quot;100&quot; is a good example of this.

But it can also be used ingenuously, in a correct context, that calls attention to how one should see the situation. In any case it is impossible to make any statement without invoking a frame, that is how the mind works, but you can resist disingenuous frames if you are aware of them, and reframe the story correctly.

Calling a poll a &quot;push poll&quot; however  is beyond that as it is not a false frame but simply false. Further as I pointed out above that sloppiness is not bias if the sloppiness invokes the frame that they oppose  Nor is it bias if they do not use the frame you would prefer.

If one poll asks if the outer shelf should be protected from drilling it invokes the nurturant frame and most folk would always vote for protection, but if it asks if the outer shelf should be closed to development it invokes the opposite frame implying that freedom is being limited and will get an opposite response that is just as bias. You can pick one or the other but you can&#039;t do both and you can&#039;t do neither, one or the other will always be there.

The Right Wing&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.archive.org/details/the.century.of.the.self&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; discovered framing 90 years ago&lt;/a&gt; and have been actively using it for so long it is the default in many places, and in many peoples minds, but that does not make it any less manipulated or more honest. Rather when people have a chance to see honest they are almost always drawn to the nurturant frame. That is why the drift of civilization is generally in that direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Framing is far more than bias. It places the context as it needs to be understood. It can (and often is) used disingenuously. And it can call up personal biases that are not good and bring them to the front. The Movie &#8220;100&#8243; is a good example of this.</p>
<p>But it can also be used ingenuously, in a correct context, that calls attention to how one should see the situation. In any case it is impossible to make any statement without invoking a frame, that is how the mind works, but you can resist disingenuous frames if you are aware of them, and reframe the story correctly.</p>
<p>Calling a poll a &#8220;push poll&#8221; however  is beyond that as it is not a false frame but simply false. Further as I pointed out above that sloppiness is not bias if the sloppiness invokes the frame that they oppose  Nor is it bias if they do not use the frame you would prefer.</p>
<p>If one poll asks if the outer shelf should be protected from drilling it invokes the nurturant frame and most folk would always vote for protection, but if it asks if the outer shelf should be closed to development it invokes the opposite frame implying that freedom is being limited and will get an opposite response that is just as bias. You can pick one or the other but you can&#8217;t do both and you can&#8217;t do neither, one or the other will always be there.</p>
<p>The Right Wing<a href="http://www.archive.org/details/the.century.of.the.self" rel="nofollow"> discovered framing 90 years ago</a> and have been actively using it for so long it is the default in many places, and in many peoples minds, but that does not make it any less manipulated or more honest. Rather when people have a chance to see honest they are almost always drawn to the nurturant frame. That is why the drift of civilization is generally in that direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Angliss</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/14/new-edf-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-58707</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Angliss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=5449#comment-58707</guid>
		<description>I do have a huge problem with framing (which is fundamentally a way to box someone else&#039;s mind into the box that&#039;s advantageous to your position and disadvantageous to someone else&#039;s position) masquerading as data.  Framing &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; bias.

I admit that I am biased, though - I&#039;m biased toward good statistical data and environmental organizations not shooting themselves in the foot.  How can EDF complain about the ACCCE&#039;s next BS poll after publishing something this bad?  It&#039;s all about credibility, and adopting the tactics of coal and oil industry mouthpieces will hurt EDF et al far more than it will hurt the industry.

And thank you for referring to me as a single voice of reason standing up against the propagandists.  That&#039;s a high compliment, even though I know that wasn&#039;t how you meant it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do have a huge problem with framing (which is fundamentally a way to box someone else&#8217;s mind into the box that&#8217;s advantageous to your position and disadvantageous to someone else&#8217;s position) masquerading as data.  Framing <em>is</em> bias.</p>
<p>I admit that I am biased, though &#8211; I&#8217;m biased toward good statistical data and environmental organizations not shooting themselves in the foot.  How can EDF complain about the ACCCE&#8217;s next BS poll after publishing something this bad?  It&#8217;s all about credibility, and adopting the tactics of coal and oil industry mouthpieces will hurt EDF et al far more than it will hurt the industry.</p>
<p>And thank you for referring to me as a single voice of reason standing up against the propagandists.  That&#8217;s a high compliment, even though I know that wasn&#8217;t how you meant it.</p>
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		<title>By: Freedem</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/11/14/new-edf-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-58704</link>
		<dc:creator>Freedem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=5449#comment-58704</guid>
		<description>It would appear that you have a detailed issue with framing. For the past 50 years  framing that has been increasingly targeted has created an entire alternative reality that has not been answered at all until the rise of the Internet and the ability to have extensive information exchange that is both two way and not controlled by gatekeepers.

Calling published results a Push Poll would be an example of this as a push poll would not care or even take information, much less publish it, but a means of transferring false &quot;facts&quot; to the persons being polled.

While I might well agree that much of the survey was sloppy, the bias is much more yours than theirs, as there are as many questions that keep a GOP frame as create a Liberal, or Environmentalist (not necessarily the same) frame.

As example &quot;Using revenue generated from large companies that pay for the pollution they create that leads to global warming&quot; is quite clumsy and would get many to see the issue as paying for something that had not cost or value, when the externalized costs that fall on the &quot;commons&quot; are indeed what all those taxes and/or  borrowing needs to pay for. However I suspect that had the question been that &quot;companies should shoulder all the costs they pass off on society&quot; I suspect that you might be more put off.

In a world where the framing is so slanted that even those who oppose the frames are suckered into them, and reality itself is accused as being a liberal frame because the speaker avoids the GOP frame, we have a very long way to go to find a &quot;left bias&quot;.

Sometimes the real actually is more accurate than made up stuff. And a single voice of reason in a hurricane of propaganda only feels like a hurricane coming the other way to the propagandists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would appear that you have a detailed issue with framing. For the past 50 years  framing that has been increasingly targeted has created an entire alternative reality that has not been answered at all until the rise of the Internet and the ability to have extensive information exchange that is both two way and not controlled by gatekeepers.</p>
<p>Calling published results a Push Poll would be an example of this as a push poll would not care or even take information, much less publish it, but a means of transferring false &#8220;facts&#8221; to the persons being polled.</p>
<p>While I might well agree that much of the survey was sloppy, the bias is much more yours than theirs, as there are as many questions that keep a GOP frame as create a Liberal, or Environmentalist (not necessarily the same) frame.</p>
<p>As example &#8220;Using revenue generated from large companies that pay for the pollution they create that leads to global warming&#8221; is quite clumsy and would get many to see the issue as paying for something that had not cost or value, when the externalized costs that fall on the &#8220;commons&#8221; are indeed what all those taxes and/or  borrowing needs to pay for. However I suspect that had the question been that &#8220;companies should shoulder all the costs they pass off on society&#8221; I suspect that you might be more put off.</p>
<p>In a world where the framing is so slanted that even those who oppose the frames are suckered into them, and reality itself is accused as being a liberal frame because the speaker avoids the GOP frame, we have a very long way to go to find a &#8220;left bias&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sometimes the real actually is more accurate than made up stuff. And a single voice of reason in a hurricane of propaganda only feels like a hurricane coming the other way to the propagandists.</p>
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