I could give you a hundred other examples, and you could go tit for tat.

Unless you have some self doubts, perceived name calling shouldn’t be such a big deal. And I clearly didn’t call you an anti-Semite.

http://www.jdl.org/geeklog/ for a different perspective.

Jeff

x

• Criticism of NOW or NARAL is misogyny.
• Criticism of the USSR meant that you hated socialists (never mind that the USSR was barely united, slightly soviet, hardly socialist, and never a republic).
• Criticism of the Saudi government is hatred of all Arabs (anti-arabism?).
• Criticism of official Roman Catholic doctrine against birth control is hatred of all Catholics
• Criticism of German policies toward the Turks means you hate all Germans.
• Criticism of U.S. government policies is a hatred of all Americans.
• Criticism of the government of Zimbawe means you’re racist toward all blacks.
• Criticism of fishing practices means you hate all fishermen.
• Criticism of ebonics means you’re a racist.
• Criticism of the editorial policy of the Wall Street Journal means you hate the entire staff.

If you don’t agree with those statements (which are nearly exact parallels to your Israel = Jews idea), you’re either a raging hypocrite or you’re too embedded in your own ideology to realize that your opinions contradict themselves.

You’ve stated a sloppily thought out conclusion (criticism of Israel = antisemitism) as an axiom, Jeff. Think through all the assumptions you’re making and work out the logic from initial conditions and you might find that the cognitive dissonance gives you a headache.

Love that statement… So, then, when Jews criticize their own leadership in Israel.. they hate themselves? and are anti-Semitic? Of course, that’s just “leftist spin” too, right?

But, it’s YOU equating “Jews”, the STATEMENT was the Israeli GOVERNMENT, which happens to be [only] mostly made up of Jews.

Reality is, there are a LOT of JEWS that are AGAINST what ISRAEL is doing.

those pesky words.. when used in their proper, intended, commonly held meanings, and not interchanging them at will to paint an unreality based picture.. become bothersome, don’t they?

Haven’t been able to get to all the comments yet, but this _one_ shows the complete lack of ability to think and reason. Seriously. You make an abstract, disconnected assertion that doesn’t bear out in realty, and you claim it as though it’s some sacred truism.

This kind of broken logic, twisted irrational thinking is what I see erupt from 90% or more of the right-wing I talk to. Twisting reality, selectively cherry picking words and ideas that are barely tangentially connected and pretending that it’s a solid base for a premise is why the right-wing manages to fail at just about everything they do.

Disliking the murder and terrorism and land/resource grabbing that Israel, the COUNTRY, is doing has NOTHING to do with “jews”. That you can’t accept that bit of reality shows a failing in you. If you cloak yourself in lies to build your reality, you’re clinically deluded and smart people will just laugh and walk away.

Hamas is “anti Israel” (I’ll take your word for it, I think it goes _way_ beyond something that simple, but ok..). That means HAMAS should be the target of criticism, not “Muslims” or “Arabs”. To blame a people for an institution’s failings is bigoted. In fact, isn’t that the the exact definition of bigot?

Hence, if you can’t seperate someone disliking Israel but not having a problem at all with Jews, one might say your own bigotry is causing your problem, which isn’t my problem.

And now that Israel is banning “Arab parties”, hence no longer being a Democratic State, aren’t the “Jews” being bigots now? Racists? Genocidal? oops..

And, again, we’re back to how words matter. By definition, Zionists are what normal people would call “bad”. And Zionists are more than just some Jews.. so being anti-Zionist isn’t anti-Jew, hence not anti-Semitic. Again, definitions matter.. we pick what words mean because without definitions, we can’t communicate. That means, if you have to fabricate new definitions of existing words so your view doesn’t come apart, you might want to change your view. That or pick words that make more sense (even though proper words will paint ugly pictures, and that’s one of those things that’s important to avoid, right?.. the UGLY TRUTH about certain views?).

I’m sorry.. this comment is probably going to get deleted too. But I just don’t know how to be civil to people that are seemingly willfully ignorant, or willfully hold deluded positions when reality and facts and definitions all stack up against them. You can’t have a rational, civil conversation with someone that refuses to be honest in their conversation/debate.

Secular Jew: similar to the Christmas/Easter Christian. A believer more on account of familial/societal tradition than on account of defining himself, first and foremost, by religious belief. (This probably covers cultural Judaism too.)

Observant Jew: a practicing believer. Synagogue, Kosher, bar/bat mitzahs, etc. This says nothing about political belief/affiliation. And being Jewish is not determinate of left or right wing, that’s personal. Same as with Christians who can be either. Wendy is definitely Christian but hardly right wing.

Religious Judaism would probably cover the very observant, where life is ordered almost entirely by religious belief…but again, that doesn’t necessitate a political stance. And it should be noted that ultra-orthodox Jews are generally anti-Zionists, prefering to see the messianic prophecy as religious rather than political.

Zionism is much, much trickier.

Zionist ideology holds that the Jews are a people or nation like any other, and should gather together in a single homeland. Zionism was self-consciously the Jewish analogue of Italian and German national liberation movements of the nineteenth century.

The 19th Century enlightenment allowed European Jews their first measure of freedom. Some left Judaism for Christianity or a secular life, but were still considered Jews…leading to the belief in the Jews being a distinct people/race. This idea was promoted by German racist ideology as much as anything else and exacerbated by the rise of nationalism in Europe.

Russian pogroms prompted the first serious formulation of Zionism and the establishment of a Jewish homeland; it was mostly ignored in the West but found favor in Russia (the empire). Keep in mind that it was the Tsarist secret police who wrote Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Zionism then got pretty well mixed with socialism. Again, this was largely a Russian phenomenon as socialist ideas were strong among the Russian intelligentsia. Socialism was, of course, gaining strength in central Europe as well. There was a mixing, partially because many Russian thinkers were in self-imposed exile in Central Europe.

There was also a very blatant modeling on colonialism, with the socialist and colonial models coming into conflict. The kibbutz is a descendent of the socialist, utopian model.

Obviously, with peole already living in Palestine there was bound to be conflict and early Zionist writers made no bones about it. Ben Gurien:

But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf; and nothing can bridge it…. I do not know what Arab will agree that Palestine should belong to the Jews…We. as a nation,. want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs. What’s important in this statement is the word “nation”.

It all gets more complicated after that, with British declarations, white papers, assasinations, etc. etc. etc. What you see all over the internet linking Zionism to a secretive banking cartel and plans for world domination is based almost solely on Baron Rothschild giving financial support to early settlements.

If you want a very good history/description of Zionism, try here:
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

The zionism I’m talking about has nothing to do with Judaism as a religion. This is a parasitic growth on Judaism that started just over a hundred years ago. It got rabies shortly thereafter.

Modern zionism is the biggest threat to the world since the Nazis. I’ve rallied hard against it for years. Mostly falling on deaf ears.

“But Israel is our friend”

No, they’re not.

Kick the zionists out of power. Give up the idea of a racist apartheid “Jewish” state.

Then we’ll talk.

About a united Israel where everyone is an equal. That’s what the zionists are afraid of.

Until then, Israel should remove it’s mouth from the US taxpayer’s breast. 60 years is enough. My nipples are tired of you.

x

Yes, this is absurd on its face, but let’s give you even more opportunities to dig, shall we? What do you make of Jews who are as opposed to what Israel is up to right now as I am?

And are American Jews who have never been to Israel, are they Israelis, too? I mean, look at the flag.

I have to believe you’re baiting people, because no way you’re as thick as you’re acting tonight. Even when you’re offering up positions that I find untenable, you’re rational. This is simply very un-Jefflike.

However, from this reaction I’ve gotten from y’all, I must have struck some kind of chord. And unless you’re an Israeli, it would be better to not criticize Jews. You all bend over backwards not to criticize Blacks and Muslims, you ought to give Israel the same respect.

Israel=Jewish….just look at the flag

You just suggested that people who criticize Israel are anti-semites. You’ve insinuated that critics are going to “haul people off in box cars,” implying that critics are morally equal to Nazis. You’ve said that “attacks on Israel either verbal or by force are attacks on all Jews”, implying that criticism of Israel (a verbal attack) is morally equivalent to spraying a synagogue in La with machinegun fire (an attack by force). So, you’re right, you never insulted me “personally.” Just included me in every negative category you defined. I prefer to be upfront and direct about my insults, especially when they’re so richly deserved.

Your complaint about good manners in debate would ring less hollow if you hadn’t essentially called everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, Jeff.

You missed the point of my post, Jeff. You missed it entirely. I recommend you read it again and try to see beyond your pro-Israel bias to the larger issues I was talking about.

With all respect, you just don’t get it.

As for my poor mouth passive aggressive response… look in your own back yard as you’ve thrown a couple of insults my way, so you can’t really take the high road. Oh wait, it’s OK to be rude to those who you disagree with. Definitely not spirited debate in the spirit of Franklin.

Jeff

I will say that you seem unable to distinguish between “Jewish” and “Israeli government.” Best I can tell, in your frame it is impossible to criticize Israeli actions without being racist. Even if the attacks are one-sided – and the operative word there is “if” – we’re talking about a GOVERNMENT and its POLICIES. That’s a far cry from attacking race or religion. I mean, Israel isn’t all Jews, and the critique is about their actions, not the essence of who they are culturally, racially, genetically, whatever.

I’m not interested in your poor-mouth, passive aggressive response to Brian, either. What kind of human being you are or he is or which of you is a better one is a rhetorical game – this is about what you said, and what you said is ludicrous.

I guess you’re just a better person than I am as, according to you I’m of limited humanity.. However, I’ve never insulted you personally, and have always tried to keep it civil. However, good manners in a vigorous debate are rather rare these days.

I remember your column and thought you could come up with something better than that…..I mean, world pressure on Israel as a means to end the conflict, you’ve gotta be kidding. They ought to put the pressure on the people intent on the destruction of Israel. Blaming Israel for everything is just another example of the antisemitism that runs rampant.

Stephan,

You forget that Israel was attacked in 67 and rightfully occupied those lands as they won the battle. To the winners go the spoils.

Here’s one back at ya:
http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1011.php

Israel can be separated from Judaism and Zionism can be separated from both. They probably all should be treated separately.

Suggesting that a criticism of Israel is the same as being anti-Semitic is disingenuous and does both Judaism and Israel more harm than good. Proof? No, but people actually to tend towards and slip into actual anti-Semitic behavior/statements because they have nowhere else to go. If you frame any criticism as anti-Semitic then you make every critic anti-Semitic; and critics might just as well be anti-Semitic. And yet the Antisemitism is still disgusting. Hurray the anti-Antisemitism crowd scores a point and the snake digests just enough of its own tail to stay ahead of its mouth.

It is this tying of religion to the issue that makes the bullshit pile up so fast that even wings can’t keep the dove above it.

There are NO GOOD GUYS in this conflict, Jeff. Go read my post on the subject if you don’t understand why I say that.

I have a posture of “Never again” too, Jeff. But it’s not limited to just the descendants of Holocaust survivors. It applies to my Iranian neighbors for whom I’ll chain myself to a bus before I allow them to be intered. It applies to the non-Muslims being slaughtered in Darfur. It applies to Kurds in Turkey, Muslims in Chechnya, Uighers in western China, etc.

How sad that your sense of humanity seems so limited.

Hamas is not sworn to Israel’s destruction. If that’s your idea of propaganda you’re going to have to learn to be a little less transpartent. Hamas will recognize Israel if Israel returns all stolen lands and goes back to its 1967 borders. These are the same preconditions the entire world presents to Israel countless times in the U.N., unanimously with only Israel and the U.S. voting against. It is also the same conditions the league of Arab states presented to Israel to normalize all relations. Check these links out, they may be helpful in broadening your understanding of the situation. If you care about peace and, like most people, find the idea of injustice, oppression and slaughter abhorent, this knowledge will be very useful in helping you to advocate for a peaceful resolution, guarantee a safe future for the people of Israel, and save lives on both sides:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0531-23.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/21/israel1