Comments on: Review: Lake with No Name by Diane Wei Liang http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/ Think. It ain't illegal yet... Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:16:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67336 Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:24:35 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67336 Dear Chris, I enjoyed your review and I might even buy Ms. Liang's book if I come across it in a bookshop. Please forgive if my content comes across as nagging -- when I operate in grump mode, as I do now and then, 3,000-something figures that resonate too readily with the tragedies of Pearl Harbor and 9/11 make me even grumpier. :-D Personally, all I can document with names attached is 200 to 1,000 (Beijing Mayor + Amnesty International). Have a nice day. Arthur Dear Chris,

I enjoyed your review and I might even buy Ms. Liang’s book if I come across it in a bookshop.

Please forgive if my content comes across as nagging — when I operate in grump mode, as I do now and then, 3,000-something figures that resonate too readily with the tragedies of Pearl Harbor and 9/11 make me even grumpier. :-D

Personally, all I can document with names attached is 200 to 1,000 (Beijing Mayor + Amnesty International).

Have a nice day.

Arthur

]]> By: CWMackowski http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67335 CWMackowski Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:16:32 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67335 Thanks for your additional Googling (and your own tank man story). I'm sorry you seem to be having such an issue with the figures. The figures I cite come from Ms. Liang's book. She also cites the disparity in numbers that you mention. Other sources have corroborated that numbers she includes in her book, but as nearly everyone admits, it's impossible to find a definitive figure. Therefore, for me to suggest a definitive number exists would be irresponsible. I would suggest, if you have a problem with the figures Ms. Liang uses, that you contact her directly. My intent was to review her book, not provide a recap of the massacre--after all, she was in Beijing at the time; I was not. -- C Thanks for your additional Googling (and your own tank man story). I’m sorry you seem to be having such an issue with the figures. The figures I cite come from Ms. Liang’s book. She also cites the disparity in numbers that you mention. Other sources have corroborated that numbers she includes in her book, but as nearly everyone admits, it’s impossible to find a definitive figure. Therefore, for me to suggest a definitive number exists would be irresponsible.

I would suggest, if you have a problem with the figures Ms. Liang uses, that you contact her directly. My intent was to review her book, not provide a recap of the massacre–after all, she was in Beijing at the time; I was not.

– C

]]> By: Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67333 Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:29:28 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67333 Dear Mr. Manckowski, A touch more googling obtains a Time Magazine article which reports a figure of 2,600 (sic: 2,600) "told to reporters" (unnamed) but the sentence goes on to add that the Chinese Red Cross issued a denial, not a downward revision. The article goes on to say that Amnesty International's figure is 1,000 deaths. The "hardline" mayor of Beijing's figure is 200. Further Kind Regards, Arthur PS: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970278,00.html Dear Mr. Manckowski,

A touch more googling obtains a Time Magazine article which reports a figure of 2,600 (sic: 2,600) “told to reporters” (unnamed) but the sentence goes on to add that the Chinese Red Cross issued a denial, not a downward revision. The article goes on to say that Amnesty International’s figure is 1,000 deaths. The “hardline” mayor of Beijing’s figure is 200.

Further Kind Regards,

Arthur

PS: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970278,00.html

]]> By: Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67332 Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:17:14 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67332 Dear Mr. Mackowski, Apologies over the gender confusion. If you haven't got a hard figure, you give a range. If an official source revises a figure, you're stuck with the revision; otherwise find another source that strikes you as credible. Presumption is not an excuse. Kind Regards, Arthur Borges Dear Mr. Mackowski,

Apologies over the gender confusion.

If you haven’t got a hard figure, you give a range. If an official source revises a figure, you’re stuck with the revision; otherwise find another source that strikes you as credible. Presumption is not an excuse.

Kind Regards,

Arthur Borges

]]> By: CWMackowski http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67331 CWMackowski Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:05:48 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67331 The figure of 3,600 came from the Chinese Red Cross right after the incident, although they later revised that figure (presumably under pressure from the Chinese government) and even went so far as to say they had never issued the first estimate. Since I have no way of knowing the actual figure, I sure am going to cover my buns! -- Mr. Mackowski The figure of 3,600 came from the Chinese Red Cross right after the incident, although they later revised that figure (presumably under pressure from the Chinese government) and even went so far as to say they had never issued the first estimate. Since I have no way of knowing the actual figure, I sure am going to cover my buns!

– Mr. Mackowski

]]> By: Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67322 Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:17:38 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67322 I have my own "tankman" story: in 1993 I ended up in Guangzhou almost flat broke and had to spend the night outside the railway station, waiting for a morning train to Hong Kong. At that time, the station was notorious for all manner of thievery. Along came these two teens, about 5'4" each. They were also waiting for a train to return their unit. The conversation was going along pleasantly when they turned out to be navy combat divers. They had spotted me as a foreigner, and thus a prime target of robbery. One sat on each side of me on the steps all the way through to dawn, there was no way I was going to have any trouble and I knew it instantly. I have my own “tankman” story: in 1993 I ended up in Guangzhou almost flat broke and had to spend the night outside the railway station, waiting for a morning train to Hong Kong. At that time, the station was notorious for all manner of thievery. Along came these two teens, about 5’4″ each. They were also waiting for a train to return their unit. The conversation was going along pleasantly when they turned out to be navy combat divers. They had spotted me as a foreigner, and thus a prime target of robbery. One sat on each side of me on the steps all the way through to dawn, there was no way I was going to have any trouble and I knew it instantly.

]]> By: Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/02/review-lake-with-no-name-by-diane-wei-liang/comment-page-1/#comment-67321 Arthur Borges in Zhengzhou Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:09:03 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10029#comment-67321 Oh for heaven's sake: check Reuters and the US State Dept background note on China. The "figure" for Tiananmen fatalities is 'hundreds, possibly thousands". "Hundreds" is as close as anyone in the West will get to the actual figure. Except for Ms/Mr. Chris Mackowski who gives us a pretty scientific 3,600 but covers his buns with the qualificaion "as many as". Yup, that sure anything from 0 on up. Oh for heaven’s sake: check Reuters and the US State Dept background note on China. The “figure” for Tiananmen fatalities is ‘hundreds, possibly thousands”. “Hundreds” is as close as anyone in the West will get to the actual figure.

Except for Ms/Mr. Chris Mackowski who gives us a pretty scientific 3,600 but covers his buns with the qualificaion “as many as”.

Yup, that sure anything from 0 on up.

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