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	<title>Comments on: Has a college degree become a bad investment? Better question: is conservative rhetoric the worst investment in history?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/</link>
	<description>Think - it ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: Russ Wellen</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67497</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ Wellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67497</guid>
		<description>Eloquent post, Dr. S. Are we really content to let China and India zoom past us? It was only a generation ago that both the GI Bill and City College in New York City educated students for free.

Thanks to Mark (ZP) too for your perspective on how college administrations bear much of the blame for driving up costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eloquent post, Dr. S. Are we really content to let China and India zoom past us? It was only a generation ago that both the GI Bill and City College in New York City educated students for free.</p>
<p>Thanks to Mark (ZP) too for your perspective on how college administrations bear much of the blame for driving up costs.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff watson</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67488</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67488</guid>
		<description>Sam,

I don&#039;t agree with everything Nock has to say(and Nock is certainly not a Marxist), but I do find his ideas well thought out, well constructed, and rigorous.

For a good read, you would find entertaining, I find it compelling, check out Nock&#039;s &quot;Our Enemy the State&quot;  Here&#039;s a link to the whole book.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.html

If you want to understand the gestalt of the pure Conservative mind, a complete read of Nock is essential.  I have about 8 or 9 of his books for download over on my blog for anybody that&#039;s interested.  I urge any liberal to fully read Nock and challenge his beliefs.

 I might further add that I have 45 classics that everyone should have read in college for anyone that might be interested, and I also have 26 full books for download that are market related.  My blog isn&#039;t just right wing rants or boring market stuff.  A friend of mine has a great take on education that is never brought up here as homeschooling is an anathema to many liberals.
Since she doesn&#039;t want her works linked on other blogs, PM me and I will send a link to her good article.

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree with everything Nock has to say(and Nock is certainly not a Marxist), but I do find his ideas well thought out, well constructed, and rigorous.</p>
<p>For a good read, you would find entertaining, I find it compelling, check out Nock&#8217;s &#8220;Our Enemy the State&#8221;  Here&#8217;s a link to the whole book.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.html</a></p>
<p>If you want to understand the gestalt of the pure Conservative mind, a complete read of Nock is essential.  I have about 8 or 9 of his books for download over on my blog for anybody that&#8217;s interested.  I urge any liberal to fully read Nock and challenge his beliefs.</p>
<p> I might further add that I have 45 classics that everyone should have read in college for anyone that might be interested, and I also have 26 full books for download that are market related.  My blog isn&#8217;t just right wing rants or boring market stuff.  A friend of mine has a great take on education that is never brought up here as homeschooling is an anathema to many liberals.<br />
Since she doesn&#8217;t want her works linked on other blogs, PM me and I will send a link to her good article.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Slammy</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67487</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Slammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67487</guid>
		<description>Jeff: the section at the top of p22 is fascinating for a number of reasons, not the least of is its accordance with what the neo-Marxist Althusser has to say about &quot;Ideological State Apparatuses.&quot;

Not everyday JW lines up with the Marxists, huh?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: the section at the top of p22 is fascinating for a number of reasons, not the least of is its accordance with what the neo-Marxist Althusser has to say about &#8220;Ideological State Apparatuses.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not everyday JW lines up with the Marxists, huh?  <img src='http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67477</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67477</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. A few comments.

College is not something just for geniuses, generally held by psychometricians to be those with an IQ of approximately 140. As you probably noticed, most college students are not genius material - frankly most of their professors outside of theoretical physics are not geniuses either. The accepted minimum IQ figure for completing a 4 year college degree is 115, a little under a standard deviation above average intelligence. In practice there are a lot of college degrees in not terribly rigorous fields/schools where you can make it with less brainpower.

There&#039;s nothing morally or socially wrong with vocational training or 2 year technical degrees. A number of  what really constitute vocational programs for socially prestigious occupations masquerade as &quot;grad school&quot; but they are no harder or broader intellectually than becoming an electrician or computer programer. 

The real purpose of an undergraduate university degree was (and should be) liberal education and the acquisition of critical, reflective, independent thinking and lifelong intellectual inquiry. It isn&#039;t supposed to be a career-specific process or indocrination in empty, politicized, fluff - a liberal education is as beneficial to a plumber as it is to a podiatrist. It also benefits the nation by cultivating an informed and critical citizenry. We need to get back to that.

The rising costs of higher education, which are pricing middle class (never mind working class) students out the decent schools is not a market driven phenomena. The rates of tuition increases are largely political and bureaucratic-administrative in nature and are not caused by evil Republicans, Ronald Reagan or capitalism but because most universities operate like public utilities do when the corporate officers ( presidents, provosts, trustees) lack any real accountability to anyone. They squeeze workers (professors) and customers (students) alike to maximize the resources under their institutional discretionary control while minimizing the quality of the service provided. They hire part timers instead of tenure track, string 4 year degrees out to 6 years, use TA&#039;s wherever possible, and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. A few comments.</p>
<p>College is not something just for geniuses, generally held by psychometricians to be those with an IQ of approximately 140. As you probably noticed, most college students are not genius material &#8211; frankly most of their professors outside of theoretical physics are not geniuses either. The accepted minimum IQ figure for completing a 4 year college degree is 115, a little under a standard deviation above average intelligence. In practice there are a lot of college degrees in not terribly rigorous fields/schools where you can make it with less brainpower.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s nothing morally or socially wrong with vocational training or 2 year technical degrees. A number of  what really constitute vocational programs for socially prestigious occupations masquerade as &#8220;grad school&#8221; but they are no harder or broader intellectually than becoming an electrician or computer programer. </p>
<p>The real purpose of an undergraduate university degree was (and should be) liberal education and the acquisition of critical, reflective, independent thinking and lifelong intellectual inquiry. It isn&#8217;t supposed to be a career-specific process or indocrination in empty, politicized, fluff &#8211; a liberal education is as beneficial to a plumber as it is to a podiatrist. It also benefits the nation by cultivating an informed and critical citizenry. We need to get back to that.</p>
<p>The rising costs of higher education, which are pricing middle class (never mind working class) students out the decent schools is not a market driven phenomena. The rates of tuition increases are largely political and bureaucratic-administrative in nature and are not caused by evil Republicans, Ronald Reagan or capitalism but because most universities operate like public utilities do when the corporate officers ( presidents, provosts, trustees) lack any real accountability to anyone. They squeeze workers (professors) and customers (students) alike to maximize the resources under their institutional discretionary control while minimizing the quality of the service provided. They hire part timers instead of tenure track, string 4 year degrees out to 6 years, use TA&#8217;s wherever possible, and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67471</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67471</guid>
		<description>I like what Nock has to say about educaion.

Here&#039;s a full download of what he says and you can skip to page 18 or so to get to the education part.
http://fee.org/wp-content/files/Cogitations.pdf

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what Nock has to say about educaion.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a full download of what he says and you can skip to page 18 or so to get to the education part.<br />
<a href="http://fee.org/wp-content/files/Cogitations.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://fee.org/wp-content/files/Cogitations.pdf</a></p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: BlogBites. Like sound bites. But without the sound. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; That one ranks right up there with “Is breathing really a good idea?” and “What are the lasting benefits of a howitzer shot to the balls?”</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67467</link>
		<dc:creator>BlogBites. Like sound bites. But without the sound. &#187; Blog Archive &#187; That one ranks right up there with “Is breathing really a good idea?” and “What are the lasting benefits of a howitzer shot to the balls?”</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67467</guid>
		<description>[...] really a good idea?” and “What are the lasting benefits of a howitzer shot to the balls?” Scholars and Rogues » Has a college degree become a bad investment? Better question: is conservativ... &#160;    &#171; Trying to make an OS out of Chrome is like saying youre going to turn a Pontiac [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] really a good idea?” and “What are the lasting benefits of a howitzer shot to the balls?” Scholars and Rogues » Has a college degree become a bad investment? Better question: is conservativ&#8230; &nbsp;    &laquo; Trying to make an OS out of Chrome is like saying youre going to turn a Pontiac [...]</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2009-07-07&#160;-&#160;Kevin Bondelli&#8217;s Youth Vote Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67405</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2009-07-07&#160;-&#160;Kevin Bondelli&#8217;s Youth Vote Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67405</guid>
		<description>[...] Scholars and Rogues » Has a college degree become a bad investment? Better question: is conservativ... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Scholars and Rogues » Has a college degree become a bad investment? Better question: is conservativ&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Slammy</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67404</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Slammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67404</guid>
		<description>Dan: As I say, feel free to run the scenario with whatever numbers strike you as more reasonable. At present I&#039;m not sure the numbers we&#039;d need to run it with extreme accuracy exist, and the last thing I&#039;m trying to do is suggest that I&#039;m doing anything more than situating the analysis in a more or less plausible ballpark.

Whether the gap is 5% or 30% or 90%, though, the dynamic I&#039;m describing is real. And the observation at the end about China and India ought to terrify anybody who cares about our place as a world leader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: As I say, feel free to run the scenario with whatever numbers strike you as more reasonable. At present I&#8217;m not sure the numbers we&#8217;d need to run it with extreme accuracy exist, and the last thing I&#8217;m trying to do is suggest that I&#8217;m doing anything more than situating the analysis in a more or less plausible ballpark.</p>
<p>Whether the gap is 5% or 30% or 90%, though, the dynamic I&#8217;m describing is real. And the observation at the end about China and India ought to terrify anybody who cares about our place as a world leader.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67401</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67401</guid>
		<description>While I agree with your thesis, you make some specious arguments to support it. The notion that only 5% of the country&#039;s geniuses will go to higher education ignores the level of meritocracy that exists. Sure, many will slip through the cracks, but to say that only 5% of the countries genius and creativity will ever be fully cultivated is intellectually dishonest since the best and brightest don&#039;t usually pay for school.

Just sayin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with your thesis, you make some specious arguments to support it. The notion that only 5% of the country&#8217;s geniuses will go to higher education ignores the level of meritocracy that exists. Sure, many will slip through the cracks, but to say that only 5% of the countries genius and creativity will ever be fully cultivated is intellectually dishonest since the best and brightest don&#8217;t usually pay for school.</p>
<p>Just sayin.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Bondelli</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/07/07/has-a-college-degree-become-a-bad-investment-better-question-is-conservative-rhetoric-the-worst-investment-in-history/comment-page-1/#comment-67385</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Bondelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10111#comment-67385</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent addition, and you are absolutely right. We need to take on the fallacy of the ownership society in education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent addition, and you are absolutely right. We need to take on the fallacy of the ownership society in education.</p>
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