Comments on: Jon & Kate: a sign of the times to come http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/ Think - it ain't illegal yet... Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:40:11 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Dr. Slammy http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69885 Dr. Slammy Wed, 12 Aug 2009 02:03:47 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69885 You know, Dawn, if economic conditions forced the return of the extended family, I suspect a lot of what has been written would need revising. Howe and Strauss' analysis has covered everything since the US was founded, but obviously the more recent chapters in the tale have relied on an assumption of the nuclear family. ESPECIALLY the last three gens (Boom, X, Mill). You know, Dawn, if economic conditions forced the return of the extended family, I suspect a lot of what has been written would need revising. Howe and Strauss’ analysis has covered everything since the US was founded, but obviously the more recent chapters in the tale have relied on an assumption of the nuclear family. ESPECIALLY the last three gens (Boom, X, Mill).

]]> By: Dawn http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69884 Dawn Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:55:37 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69884 Sam - these generational differences are indeed fascinating. I wonder how the current economic picture will effect these relationships. Multi-generations forced to live together certainly changes the dynamics of a household. (I grew up in a multi-generational household. It can be tough.) Helicoptering can have strong elements of economic privilege - after all it takes more resources to hover. Be interesting to watch this unfold - parenting a 15 year old myself is the biggest balancing act I've ever attempted! Sam – these generational differences are indeed fascinating. I wonder how the current economic picture will effect these relationships. Multi-generations forced to live together certainly changes the dynamics of a household. (I grew up in a multi-generational household. It can be tough.)

Helicoptering can have strong elements of economic privilege – after all it takes more resources to hover.

Be interesting to watch this unfold – parenting a 15 year old myself is the biggest balancing act I’ve ever attempted!

]]> By: jeff watson http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69880 jeff watson Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:07:51 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69880 Sam, Kids should play second fiddle, but in the sense that parents should empower them, but not make them the center of their universe. I've noticed that while this generation of kids might be cooperative, when parents take over their lives, it creates emotionally needy kids. Not to mention the undue pressure it puts on them trying to live up to the extremely high expectations of the hovering parents.. Although this is anecdotal, I noticed a significant proportion of kids at Exeter and Yale that developed various facial tics.....that's undue pressure in my world..While I'm a far from perfect father, I always looked at the helicopter parents and tried to do the opposite with my son. Sam,

Kids should play second fiddle, but in the sense that parents should empower them, but not make them the center of their universe. I’ve noticed that while this generation of kids might be cooperative, when parents take over their lives, it creates emotionally needy kids. Not to mention the undue pressure it puts on them trying to live up to the extremely high expectations of the hovering parents.. Although this is anecdotal, I noticed a significant proportion of kids at Exeter and Yale that developed various facial tics…..that’s undue pressure in my world..While I’m a far from perfect father, I always looked at the helicopter parents and tried to do the opposite with my son.

]]> By: Dr. Slammy http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69878 Dr. Slammy Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:46:22 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69878 Mike: The big deal with J+K is less about the fact that they divorced - although doing so with 8 kids is certainly a story - and more about the narrative. Hey, divorce didn't go away in 1980. The big deal here, if I didn't state it clearly enough, is what this means for the "kids come first" narrative that has dominated our collective ideology for the last generation. Mike: The big deal with J+K is less about the fact that they divorced – although doing so with 8 kids is certainly a story – and more about the narrative. Hey, divorce didn’t go away in 1980. The big deal here, if I didn’t state it clearly enough, is what this means for the “kids come first” narrative that has dominated our collective ideology for the last generation.

]]> By: Ubertramp http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69876 Ubertramp Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:19:28 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69876 I think I'm a bit confused. I'm probably just missing the point, as usual. Are you assuming that people who get a divorce are always placing their relationship with their spouse above their kids? What about people who get a divorce for the same reason? Not knowing the statistics, I can't really say how common that is. I guess I just think think this is a very complicated issue. As you know, I'm a 'product of divorce' (and my mom is not particularly known for following generational trends). I'm not sure if it would have been "better" for me if they stayed together, though. Granted, I'm not exactly the most well adjusted person on the planet. Socially, I'm absolutely clueless. But I'm not sure how much of that has to do with my parent's divorcing when I was very young, mild PTSD from living in Hawaii, genetics, or just being a wishy-washy pisces. Probably all of it. I think I’m a bit confused. I’m probably just missing the point, as usual. Are you assuming that people who get a divorce are always placing their relationship with their spouse above their kids? What about people who get a divorce for the same reason? Not knowing the statistics, I can’t really say how common that is.

I guess I just think think this is a very complicated issue. As you know, I’m a ‘product of divorce’ (and my mom is not particularly known for following generational trends). I’m not sure if it would have been “better” for me if they stayed together, though. Granted, I’m not exactly the most well adjusted person on the planet. Socially, I’m absolutely clueless. But I’m not sure how much of that has to do with my parent’s divorcing when I was very young, mild PTSD from living in Hawaii, genetics, or just being a wishy-washy pisces. Probably all of it.

]]> By: jeff watson http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69873 jeff watson Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:47:37 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69873 Great article Sam. Having a 21 year old bright kid, I've been around helicopter parents a lot. It is my contention that being a helicopter parent usually causes more harm to the kid than does good. Recently, I had a discussion with a Tribeca Mom(the worst sub species of helicopter parent), and she said that if her 3 year old didn't get into the right pre-school, his life would be ruined. Her idea is that if he doesn't get into the good preschool, forget about a good private K-12, and kiss Harvard goodbye. I couldn't believe my ears listening to her....her obsession borders on child abuse. Somehow, I think that helicopter parents are living for themselves and have a desire to mold their kids into something that will be acceptable to them, and their peer group. I've witnessed the negative effects on the kids from having parents who hover, over stimulate, and over schedule their kids. Sometimes, it's good for kids just to lay around and daydream and just look at the clouds. Personally, I believe in a rather laissez faire approach to child rearing, and in my son's case, he's turned out OK so far. He's definitely not a clone of me, and is his own person in every sense of the word. Jeff Great article Sam. Having a 21 year old bright kid, I’ve been around helicopter parents a lot. It is my contention that being a helicopter parent usually causes more harm to the kid than does good. Recently, I had a discussion with a Tribeca Mom(the worst sub species of helicopter parent), and she said that if her 3 year old didn’t get into the right pre-school, his life would be ruined. Her idea is that if he doesn’t get into the good preschool, forget about a good private K-12, and kiss Harvard goodbye. I couldn’t believe my ears listening to her….her obsession borders on child abuse. Somehow, I think that helicopter parents are living for themselves and have a desire to mold their kids into something that will be acceptable to them, and their peer group. I’ve witnessed the negative effects on the kids from having parents who hover, over stimulate, and over schedule their kids. Sometimes, it’s good for kids just to lay around and daydream and just look at the clouds. Personally, I believe in a rather laissez faire approach to child rearing, and in my son’s case, he’s turned out OK so far. He’s definitely not a clone of me, and is his own person in every sense of the word.

Jeff

]]> By: Darrell http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69871 Darrell Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:22:33 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69871 It's kinda funny. In North Buffalo we watch kids on their bikes riding around all the time with no bike helmets. When I go to the burbs where I grew up the kids are practically wearing full body armor. Both area's are similar income types (actually North Buffalo may be more affluent in spots), and the same helmet laws for children. What's funny is how me and my brother used to jump everything with our BMX's when we were kids, now he's one of those people who make his kids wear body armor when they ride their bike. It’s kinda funny. In North Buffalo we watch kids on their bikes riding around all the time with no bike helmets. When I go to the burbs where I grew up the kids are practically wearing full body armor. Both area’s are similar income types (actually North Buffalo may be more affluent in spots), and the same helmet laws for children. What’s funny is how me and my brother used to jump everything with our BMX’s when we were kids, now he’s one of those people who make his kids wear body armor when they ride their bike.

]]> By: Dr. Slammy http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69870 Dr. Slammy Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:58:38 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69870 Jen: I don't know that I think divorce rates will necessarily go up, although it's a good question. So many of my contemporaries were pretty careful about getting married (I was 41 before I finally took the plunge myself) because they had grown up in decidedly non-Cleaver family environments. (Early Xers were often the children of Silent Generation parents, and they're the ones the term "Me Generation" was coined to describe.) So on the whole I think X marriages work to be as responsible as possible. In some cases this may result in some bend-over-backwardness, but we're also a really practical cohort and I think the idea that children don't benefit from bad marriages is one that will make sense to us (and to early Millennial parents, as well). Conversations about things the size of generations can be confusing an unsatisfying, though, because there are always millions of exceptions. So you're certainly right to poke at things that seem off to you. On particular dynamic in this kind of discussion is that in talking about the parents of Mills, you're talking about both Boomers and Xers (early and late). Howe and Strauss discuss how early and late stages of a gen can vary because they're being raised by the latter cohort of Gen A and the early cohort of Gen B, and that can make a big difference. So apologies for the slippage - part of it is probably me and the rest is probably unavoidable, to some degree. Thanks for dropping by. Jen: I don’t know that I think divorce rates will necessarily go up, although it’s a good question. So many of my contemporaries were pretty careful about getting married (I was 41 before I finally took the plunge myself) because they had grown up in decidedly non-Cleaver family environments. (Early Xers were often the children of Silent Generation parents, and they’re the ones the term “Me Generation” was coined to describe.) So on the whole I think X marriages work to be as responsible as possible. In some cases this may result in some bend-over-backwardness, but we’re also a really practical cohort and I think the idea that children don’t benefit from bad marriages is one that will make sense to us (and to early Millennial parents, as well).

Conversations about things the size of generations can be confusing an unsatisfying, though, because there are always millions of exceptions. So you’re certainly right to poke at things that seem off to you. On particular dynamic in this kind of discussion is that in talking about the parents of Mills, you’re talking about both Boomers and Xers (early and late). Howe and Strauss discuss how early and late stages of a gen can vary because they’re being raised by the latter cohort of Gen A and the early cohort of Gen B, and that can make a big difference.

So apologies for the slippage – part of it is probably me and the rest is probably unavoidable, to some degree.

Thanks for dropping by.

]]> By: jenx67 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/08/10/jon-kate-a-sign-of-the-times-to-come/comment-page-1/#comment-69863 jenx67 Tue, 11 Aug 2009 03:20:29 +0000 http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=10749#comment-69863 so, do you think divorce rates will increase among gen X? I see Xers as helicopter parents vs. Boomers who were self-centered. I'm not sure I'm tracking with you. You make several great points, but I'm a little confused. I see Gen X parents a being child-centered, which doesn't support your thesis about the highly self-centered Gosselins. I'm sure you made your point well. I'm probalby just tired! so, do you think divorce rates will increase among gen X? I see Xers as helicopter parents vs. Boomers who were self-centered. I’m not sure I’m tracking with you. You make several great points, but I’m a little confused. I see Gen X parents a being child-centered, which doesn’t support your thesis about the highly self-centered Gosselins. I’m sure you made your point well. I’m probalby just tired!

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