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	<title>Comments on: Intersexuality means that gender, like race, is neither black nor white</title>
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	<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/</link>
	<description>Think.  It ain&#039;t illegal yet...</description>
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		<title>By: Dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-71223</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 22:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-71223</guid>
		<description>Whyhawk - I&#039;m sure you saw this.  It feels so forced and does dressing up change her reality?  Of course not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8243553.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whyhawk &#8211; I&#8217;m sure you saw this.  It feels so forced and does dressing up change her reality?  Of course not.</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8243553.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8243553.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: FreeDem</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-71002</link>
		<dc:creator>FreeDem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 01:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-71002</guid>
		<description>Having noticed the phenomenon in tropical fish in High School I made a small research project of it in College and an obvious bit of Darwinism came forth. If it works it will be passed on no matter what general rules and division bins folk made to recognize two bins that were different some will not fit in either bin, and while full species examples of &quot; not your normal ideas of sex&quot; are common they could not get that way without ready made examples of individuals of all sorts stepping off in that direction.

In the literature I could find at the time were two examples of men who had children as men undergoing a change and having children as women (this is counter to expectations and there was not much in explanation) In one case it got dicey as the man was Muslim and with three wives and it caused a bit of stir legally till all 4 were declared a harem that had lost its man. I read this 40 years ago and the details are sketchy. However the progress from female to male is standard issue in grouper, and many species, and all(?)  birds are referred to as YY &amp; WY as the female of the species carries the odd gene.

There is also a rather famous race of lizards that have no males at all as the first splitting creates a clone instead of an egg. As I said it was 40 years ago and primarily a literature search, though I was able to get a single fish that changed, going from female to nothing to male, according to my professor who was able to distinguish what he was looking at far better than I could.

But what was obvious is that what happens is never cut and dried just because someone put a label on it and the pigeon holes you put things in reflect how your mind orders them and not what is happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having noticed the phenomenon in tropical fish in High School I made a small research project of it in College and an obvious bit of Darwinism came forth. If it works it will be passed on no matter what general rules and division bins folk made to recognize two bins that were different some will not fit in either bin, and while full species examples of &#8221; not your normal ideas of sex&#8221; are common they could not get that way without ready made examples of individuals of all sorts stepping off in that direction.</p>
<p>In the literature I could find at the time were two examples of men who had children as men undergoing a change and having children as women (this is counter to expectations and there was not much in explanation) In one case it got dicey as the man was Muslim and with three wives and it caused a bit of stir legally till all 4 were declared a harem that had lost its man. I read this 40 years ago and the details are sketchy. However the progress from female to male is standard issue in grouper, and many species, and all(?)  birds are referred to as YY &amp; WY as the female of the species carries the odd gene.</p>
<p>There is also a rather famous race of lizards that have no males at all as the first splitting creates a clone instead of an egg. As I said it was 40 years ago and primarily a literature search, though I was able to get a single fish that changed, going from female to nothing to male, according to my professor who was able to distinguish what he was looking at far better than I could.</p>
<p>But what was obvious is that what happens is never cut and dried just because someone put a label on it and the pigeon holes you put things in reflect how your mind orders them and not what is happening.</p>
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		<title>By: whythawk</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70984</link>
		<dc:creator>whythawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70984</guid>
		<description>A year ago Semenya was a racing non-entity.  Then her fastest times dropped by 25 seconds and she popped onto the international racing circuit radar.  The IAAF immediately requested a test from Sport SA, but were refused (South Africa puts precious little resource into athletics, but enjoys the political kudos of winning and didn&#039;t want their new &quot;star&quot; disqualified).

When Sport SA announced Semenya as a competitor in their team for the World Championships then the IAAF put their foot down and demanded a test, which was done, but the results hadn&#039;t come out by the time of the competition.  Sport SA, worried that she would be disqualified before the awards were handed out, leaked the story to the press.

I.e. the IAAF was attempting to handle it sensitively, but they&#039;re dealing with a munchkin country.  It is appalling the way this is being handled, but I&#039;m not sure - now that the story is out - what should be done to ameliorate the damage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A year ago Semenya was a racing non-entity.  Then her fastest times dropped by 25 seconds and she popped onto the international racing circuit radar.  The IAAF immediately requested a test from Sport SA, but were refused (South Africa puts precious little resource into athletics, but enjoys the political kudos of winning and didn&#8217;t want their new &#8220;star&#8221; disqualified).</p>
<p>When Sport SA announced Semenya as a competitor in their team for the World Championships then the IAAF put their foot down and demanded a test, which was done, but the results hadn&#8217;t come out by the time of the competition.  Sport SA, worried that she would be disqualified before the awards were handed out, leaked the story to the press.</p>
<p>I.e. the IAAF was attempting to handle it sensitively, but they&#8217;re dealing with a munchkin country.  It is appalling the way this is being handled, but I&#8217;m not sure &#8211; now that the story is out &#8211; what should be done to ameliorate the damage.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70982</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70982</guid>
		<description>Whyhawk - I confess I have very limited knowledge regarding these sort of sporting organizations - but how did she get this far in competition without this question being posed?   Would this be a kinder process to have everyone checked before they begin competition at this level?  Then when an athlete posts such a performance there is no controversy.  It&#039;s cruel the way it is now.

Thank you for sharing this story - it needs exploration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whyhawk &#8211; I confess I have very limited knowledge regarding these sort of sporting organizations &#8211; but how did she get this far in competition without this question being posed?   Would this be a kinder process to have everyone checked before they begin competition at this level?  Then when an athlete posts such a performance there is no controversy.  It&#8217;s cruel the way it is now.</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing this story &#8211; it needs exploration.</p>
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		<title>By: whythawk</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70975</link>
		<dc:creator>whythawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70975</guid>
		<description>Dawn, we&#039;re not disagreeing at all.  I am far more concerned than I can find the words for.  I would like that this &quot;failure&quot; be seen only in the context of this sporting categorisation.  I am well aware that it will be used far more widely to humiliate and ruin Semenya.

She comes from an incredibly rural and ignorant part of South Africa. These rural areas still stone &quot;witches&quot; to death.  Introducing a topic as complex as interssexuality in the context of this debate would be difficult enough.  Politicising it, as the South African government is doing, almost ensures that Semenya will be cast out of her family and her village should she be found to be interssexual.

Instead of patiently waiting for the results and declaring that, irrispective of gender, Semenya is still a great athlete, the government has announced that the test is racist, sexist and regard it as a slight against the nation.

To answer Dr S, there is no discussion whatsoever in South Africa about the nature of gender and interssexuallity.  I don&#039;t think anyone is prepared for how Semenya will be treated should the results come back inconclusive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dawn, we&#8217;re not disagreeing at all.  I am far more concerned than I can find the words for.  I would like that this &#8220;failure&#8221; be seen only in the context of this sporting categorisation.  I am well aware that it will be used far more widely to humiliate and ruin Semenya.</p>
<p>She comes from an incredibly rural and ignorant part of South Africa. These rural areas still stone &#8220;witches&#8221; to death.  Introducing a topic as complex as interssexuality in the context of this debate would be difficult enough.  Politicising it, as the South African government is doing, almost ensures that Semenya will be cast out of her family and her village should she be found to be interssexual.</p>
<p>Instead of patiently waiting for the results and declaring that, irrispective of gender, Semenya is still a great athlete, the government has announced that the test is racist, sexist and regard it as a slight against the nation.</p>
<p>To answer Dr S, there is no discussion whatsoever in South Africa about the nature of gender and interssexuallity.  I don&#8217;t think anyone is prepared for how Semenya will be treated should the results come back inconclusive.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70972</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70972</guid>
		<description>Whyhawk - I understand your point that the &quot;failure&quot; is against a set of rules designed to govern a series of competitions.  If the discussion was left inside that arena I might agree with you, but it spills over to the public.  Sadly many female athletes that have had their sexual identity questioned have had all manner of humiliations heaped on them.  I&#039;m sorry I can&#039;t find the article this morning, but will link it later - the humilation has ranged from being displayed naked in public to feeling such loss as to commit suicide.  
Humans are emotional beings and I&#039;m not convinced that the label &quot;fail&quot; does not have bigger implications than this sporting event.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whyhawk &#8211; I understand your point that the &#8220;failure&#8221; is against a set of rules designed to govern a series of competitions.  If the discussion was left inside that arena I might agree with you, but it spills over to the public.  Sadly many female athletes that have had their sexual identity questioned have had all manner of humiliations heaped on them.  I&#8217;m sorry I can&#8217;t find the article this morning, but will link it later &#8211; the humilation has ranged from being displayed naked in public to feeling such loss as to commit suicide.<br />
Humans are emotional beings and I&#8217;m not convinced that the label &#8220;fail&#8221; does not have bigger implications than this sporting event.</p>
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		<title>By: whythawk</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70969</link>
		<dc:creator>whythawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70969</guid>
		<description>Dawn, the &quot;failure&quot; is to fit the arbitrary categorisations necessary for ultra-athletic competition.  This is an artificial test for an artificial measure of physical excellence.  It is certainly possible to &quot;fail&quot; it; but that doesn&#039;t have any bearing on the world outside the world of competitive sport.

The real problem is the way the South African government - like the Soviets before them - have chosen to politicise the life of one person and, in so doing, make that person&#039;s life a misery.

Ubertramp: I agree, it doesn&#039;t feel very satisfying, but then have a look at the &quot;special&quot; Olympics and the largely bizarre and arbitrary categorisations that take place there.  It can be done, it just takes a little imagination.

And remember, there are some 6 million transsexuals in the world...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dawn, the &#8220;failure&#8221; is to fit the arbitrary categorisations necessary for ultra-athletic competition.  This is an artificial test for an artificial measure of physical excellence.  It is certainly possible to &#8220;fail&#8221; it; but that doesn&#8217;t have any bearing on the world outside the world of competitive sport.</p>
<p>The real problem is the way the South African government &#8211; like the Soviets before them &#8211; have chosen to politicise the life of one person and, in so doing, make that person&#8217;s life a misery.</p>
<p>Ubertramp: I agree, it doesn&#8217;t feel very satisfying, but then have a look at the &#8220;special&#8221; Olympics and the largely bizarre and arbitrary categorisations that take place there.  It can be done, it just takes a little imagination.</p>
<p>And remember, there are some 6 million transsexuals in the world&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ubertramp</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70957</link>
		<dc:creator>Ubertramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70957</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not really sure what people are supposed to do about this short of dropping sex from competition all together or creating another category called &quot;other.&quot;  Neither one is a very satisfying (or realistic) answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not really sure what people are supposed to do about this short of dropping sex from competition all together or creating another category called &#8220;other.&#8221;  Neither one is a very satisfying (or realistic) answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70947</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70947</guid>
		<description>One of the aspects of this that really disturbs me is the notion that Caster has the potential to &quot;fail&quot; this testing.  She may in fact just express XX in a certain way, but would you like to be told you fail at your gender assignment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the aspects of this that really disturbs me is the notion that Caster has the potential to &#8220;fail&#8221; this testing.  She may in fact just express XX in a certain way, but would you like to be told you fail at your gender assignment?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Slammy</title>
		<link>http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/09/01/intersexuality-means-that-gender-like-race-is-neither-black-nor-white/comment-page-1/#comment-70929</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Slammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/?p=11142#comment-70929</guid>
		<description>Nice overview. I wonder what percentage of those with strong opinions on Semenya know any of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice overview. I wonder what percentage of those with strong opinions on Semenya know any of this?</p>
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