I always tried to be that kind of teacher myself. The problem is when students have the same expectation that you would, except they DON’T have a well-considered opinion. Kinda sucks the soul out of you, you know?

Glad you like WT. Like I said, I know many people whose opinions I respect who do, and probably more who don’t. But this is good, because it gives me an opportunity to ask a question: If I were in one of your classes and I said I don’t like WT, and I said I didn’t like it because the opening lines allow for no character development, examination of motive, development of relationship to set up the reunion so that the audience gives a damn, and the like, and if I went on to object to the structure, pointing out that the pastoral scenes sucked whatever small life and dramatic tension there was in the story to begin with, and if I went on to assert that WT is very uncharacteristic of Will’s late works, which show nearly constant improvement in melding the playwright’s craft with the actor’s needs, right down to the Menecrates/Enobarbus scene in Anthony and Cleopatra, and if I continued with a supposition that Will was phoning this one in — would you tell me that WT is a great play and grade me down?

Just curious.

Mike: I saw EC with Steve Nieve and a symphony for my b-day a couple of years ago. Outdoor concert for thw wine and cheese crowd. And Elvis played to them even as he did what the hell he wanted to. Great, great show. And I grow fonder of Thompson all the time….

Nobody has mentioned Nick Drake… to whom Tori Amos and Sarah MacLachlan DO owe a real debt….

I will be back, though!

What a list! I know some guys who will sing John Hiatt’s praises till the end of time (even Adam Carolla, who regularly blasts radio biz–which he was in for years–for same reasons Sam and others have already mentioned). Elvis Costello is a genius nonpareil. The greatest concert I ever saw was his 3-hour set with the reunited Attractions here in Denver some years ago at the Paramount. He was taking requests by the end and didn’t seem to want to stop and we didn’t want to let him go. One of the artists you list whose catalog I haven’t fully explored yet is, sadly, Richard Thompson. But I like that I haven’t heard it all yet.

As for Sandy Denny, you might be interested in the comment I left at the end of the last ToR thread.

1) Brian – Sam’s made excellent points refuting your link from Billy Joel to Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan. Are you arguing that the two women are influenced by Joel because they play piano, too? You know that’s faulty logic…. But you got him on faulty logic, too, so we’re all full of it, evidently….

2) JS – Let the “Satisfaction” thing go. You hate it. I get it. It wasn’t being forced to hear it a zillion times during its popularity that made you hate it (as I thought) in my response. You just hate the song. Makes perfect sense. You privileged personal taste higher than other criteria regarding that song. Nothing wrong with that (despite Sam blowing his top about now).

BTW, I’m one of those people who knows his Shakespeare real well, too (goes with my job as it does with yours). I like both T&C AND Winter’s Tale. I see WT as a triumph OVER formula, you don’t. Personal taste, I guess. Your description of T&C’s charms is spot on, btw….

Tom: I thought of Ben Folds as I composed my earlier comment – and I think you may have a point. But he’s the only one I can think of. I can think of several others besides the examples I mentioned who are “sons of Sting,” so to speak….

Mike: You defended musicianship in the Police far more vigorously than I would have – but you’re absolutely right. They are great improvisers as anyone who’s seen them live will attest….

Sam: As I noted in my evaluation of the artists in this pod, GP, while we both love and revere him, and as I noted while we were creating the seedings, IS an artist who is (sadly, unfairly) much more obscure than Elvis Costello. But “a poor man’s EC” he is most definitely not. That’s ad hominem attack and, as we know, faulty logic and poor argument….However, not knowing an artist’s work is not an invalid criterion for downgrading his reputation. It is, instead, an unfair criterion. There’s a difference, as we both know….

Lex: Beatles now and forever. Amen and Amen….

And sorry, no, can’t say I know that song. It was good though. Don’t know if I’d call it great, though.

Lo siento, pero no entiendo. Oh well, moving on.

The Police are deserving of sitting at the table with any of the Boomer greats. As Duck Dunn might say, “A band that could turn goat piss into gasoline.” It’s like little else that came before or after. And in the event of a tie, the winner would go to the best drummer. Copeland is amazing, one of the all time best (i think better than Peart ’cause he’s got the technical and soul). I’ll cut him some slack on the jazz comment and assume he meant to say, “Jazz isn’t dead it just smells funny.”

To the general gist of this conversation: It will be impossible to remove subjectivity from this process, and since the ToR has universal suffrage there’s going to be plenty of less-than-critical opinion. What this exercise may prove in the end…after everyone sighs deeply and decides that the Beatles were the greatest rock band ever because it’s always been that way…is that democracy sucks.

Dear lord. Well, that’s how some see him. I’d personally argue the other way. I admire the hell out of Costello’s insistence on experimenting and on being true to his own vision. He walked away from New Wave, which I still regard as his greatest period. But that’s what an artist does – he realizes the need to speak to an audience, but he doesn’t let the audience dictate what he will be. So many props.

That said, I don’t think the actual work he’s DONE measures up to what Parker has done. GP is still recognizably the same artist as he was in 1978 – more mature, more thoughtful and reflective, but he’s still, at the core, a straight-on pub rocker. So he and EC are vastly different in that respect.

As for what you’re voting for, well, there’s not much I can do about that. You can vote for the artist with the biggest hair and I can’t stop you. However, I can quote you the first line from the ToR- Legends page, and it sets the task forth in a way that has been repeated, I believe, in every single post in this tournament: In ToR II: The Legends, S&R poses a simple question: who is the greatest rock band or artist of all time?

If you would, note the boldfaced text.